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Thread: 45-70 AK

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    Cuerno de Chivo chipmechanic's Avatar
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    Default 45-70 AK

    I was out shooting my .410 saiga shotgun with my dad yesterday. He had one of his .45 Colt revolvers and I noticed the cases had the same face. I loaded up a 45 colt round into the shotgun and lit it off. It went pop and a bullet flew out the end. Imagine that . Anyway since the .45 colt is just a shortened .45-70 I suppose the shotgun would chamber that round as well. No if I were to but barrel and chamber it for the 45-70 round and use the same bolt, magazine and trunion does anyone think it would work? As far as I know the .410 shotgun cartrdige was based on the .45-70 chamber to allow old rolling block military rifles to fire shotgun shells so I'm thinking its not too much of a stretch. The only real drawback as far as I can tell is that the .410 mags only hold 4 rounds. Maybe the PSL mags could be modified to work.

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    Master Endmill Breaker Rhino_66's Avatar
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    The most damning evidence is the truth.

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    WTF first off the bullet OD on a 45 colt long is .452!! the ID of my sagias's muzzel is .399!! a .053 DIFFERANCE!!! I can only guess that you were shooting cast lead bullets or you likely have blown the gun and your face apart with a jacketed bullet! the ID of my 410 choke is .380 = a .072 differance this would be like shooting a 44 mag bullet through a 41 mag barrel! All I can say is dont keep doing it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would really cheak that saiga barrel over before I shot it again I wouldnt be suprized if it it now bigger at the muzzel
    as far as converting a 410 SG to 45-70 the rim DIA on a 45-70 is .608 vs 410 of.528=.080 differance
    the rim of a .45 colt long is .512=.016 differance
    the head diamiter of the colt 45 is .481 vs 410sg of .474= .007 differance (45 colt must have been a tight fit.
    the 410 mag will not take a 45-70 due to the extra rim not fitting (trust me I have tried it).

    NOW for the good news if you want to do a 410 sagia to a big bore rifle. look at the 444 Marlin round. it is very close to the 410 in fact some guys make 444 marlin from brass 410 shells same rim dia and they do fit in a saiga mag (slightly long for a 2.5" mag but fit in a 3".
    Tony Romix from tromik lead delivery systems has already done at least one and guys on this site claim to have orderd them. If you look at your saiga you will see that the top of the barrel is chrouded past the chamber and I suspect you will have do the same to make it feed.
    not saying a 45-70 on a SAIGA cant be done but it will be more work than just a barrel change. the mag will deffintly need major mods. and the bolt face will need to be opend a fair amount.
    I am personaly working on a rimless 444 marlin varient wich will use cut down 30-06 brass as the parent brass. the tricky part is head spacing on the case mouth. this build will use a standard AK bolt opend up to .473
    check out the calibur conversion section of this sight for more info.

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    Cuerno de Chivo chipmechanic's Avatar
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    Actually none of the above. The 45 colt dropped right into the chamber and resulting round when fired out of the gun actually hit what I was aiming at . I didnt try to run it through the mag since it was so short. I did read your comments and checked it out thoroughly this evening . Couldnt find anything out of the ordinary. We did use a jacketed bullet and at this point I'm sure it got resized on the way down. I only ran one through and it didnt even cycle the action although it was an easy shell to eject manually. . I did take the choke off when I fired up the 45 colt and afterwards ran 20 or so .410 shells with no ill effects. Tough "little" gun if a bit on the long side. Defiitely wont do it again though.

    If the 45-70 rim is that big looks like it won't work without some refitting. Didnt the streetsweeper come in a 45-70/410 chambering after the ATF put the kibosh on the 12 gauge version ?

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    Question Everything... CeeKay's Avatar
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    Actually...

    The .45 Long Colt firearms are designed to take a .410g shotgun shell. I wouldn't doubt that the .45LC would work in a 410, as the 410 works in a .45LC... However, the 410 has a plastic wadding and shot that can expand if necessary, which the .45lc slug lacks...

    Also, there is no rifling in a shotgun (that I've seen at least), and therefore non-rifled slugs would end up being just blunt projectiles... You'd need to either A. rifle your barrel, B. rifle each round, or C. invest in some 410 rifled slugs... Or, you could just keep your Saiga as a 410 shotgun...

    I don't believe it to be healthy to fire .45 rounds in your 410ga shotgun... It's physically possible, but I don't think it's healthy for the firearm or its owner... Try maybe .40 long?

    Also, if you made a new barrel and chambered it for .45-70, it would work with the original bolt and carrier. Also, you might need to modify the magazine. Not too sure...

    Would be neat to see someone convert to a .45...


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    aka: SDK1968 dutigaf's Avatar
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    sorry guys im gonna go different than you here...

    ive got several .410 shotguns and they say right on them: 3" chamber 410/.45 long colt.

    granted they are in single shot. i sue them this way all the time. no they arent rifled but they still be pretty accurate for a "shotgun"...

    pretty common thing in places where you cant use a rifle for hunting but can use a shotgun or pistol to see guys use 45LC with a hot load in a .410

    no recoil to speak of and better range than most shotguns.

    45-70 is quite a bit different and im not sure if id attempt that one..


    ***********edit *********** we also have 2 derringers that say .410/45LC on them
    say what you mean & mean what you say


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    Gunco Member bigwheeler's Avatar
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    Default 45 70 pressures

    It would be wise to look at the cylinder pressures you are dealing with. If you put a
    late model 45 70 load in an early gun like a springfield you will be hunting down parts
    of your face for a long time. If you have ever fired some of the new full loads in a Marlin
    lever you know they kick much harder, some would even say ouch.

  8. #8
    Gunco Member Mini-14's Avatar
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    .410 shotgun I always thought meant .410" CALIBER, .41, and was the only shotgun that was listed by its caliber instead of its gauge. I don't understand the "Bore" sizes to comment on them.
    The M6 Survival Rifle was designed to shoot .45LC and .410 out of the same barrel.
    If the shotgun doesn't say on it .45LC, or if the muzzle doesn't measure an acceptable closeness, i wouldn't do it myself. What that acceptable closeness is, I have no idea.

  9. #9
    Gunco Regular Gunter's Avatar
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    Yep, the .410 is a caliber not a gauge.

    IIRC, The gauge is how many balls it takes of the "bore" size to equal 1 pound. A 16 gauge has a bore of .662 so, it would take 16 lead balls of .662 size to equal a pound.

  10. #10
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    ive got several .410 shotguns and they say right on them: 3" chamber 410/.45 long colt.
    Interesting!
    The measurements I gave are off of my personal sagia and 45-70 ammo. I have read that 45-70 CAN be shot in my new england fire arms 45-70 but that has a much bigger bore than the sagia 410 (3" shell will not fit). I wonder what the bore on your 410's that are also marked .45 long colt is? I am suspecting it is bigger than the .399 of my sagia. I also had a 45LC darringer that would shoot 410 shells and I remember that the 410 shells were a loose fit in it.
    I am still standing by my recomindation that a .452 bullet through a .399 bore is not a good idea. If I had a gun factory marked saying 410/.45 long colt then I would shoot it.

    Also, if you made a new barrel and chambered it for .45-70, it would work with the original bolt and carrier. Also, you might need to modify the magazine.
    Bolt will not work as is. 45-70 as stated above, the rim is .080 larger than a 410 SG. the mag will not work as well and it would take some serious work to make it work much better to go with HCs ideas for a 45-70 mag. I have read some were when researching the tromix 444 Marlin that some one was working on a 45-70 saiga BUT it was on a 20 guage.
    For the record I tried to put a 45-70 into a 410 sagia bore and the bullet will not enter the chamber at all. At least we dont have to worry about some trying to get a 458 bullet through a .399 barrel. LOL

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