I used to work in turbine engine overhaul. We experimented with putting together a perfect (according to engineers) engine that was made up of parts cherry picked for tolerance variances. The results were that the time/effort put into this 'perfect engine' did not warrant the slight increase in thrust and fuel efficiency. Yah so. whats your point? Has anyone really built a perfect AK with all parts in the best range of tolerance? Is the end result worth the input? I have always had more fun shooting into a 4 inch circle @100 yards than trying to get into a 2 inch circle at 300. Granted I'm not a 'long range' shooter, i prefer to have fun and practice more at 100 or less. I hope my comments are appropriate for a thread on accurization. BTW, I'm a newbie here at Gunco but no newbie to the hobby. Nice info 1biggun
00077I have built several with the tollerances as close as possable and done every thing I can( Or afford) to get the most out of a build . I assure you my gun will do every thing yours will do as reliably, just mine will shot under a 1/2" group VS your 4" pattern. I can dump a mag out of mine from the hip just like any other AK. I can also shoot that same 4" group at over 400 yards VS 100 yards so whats not to like???? I have several normal looking AKs but with otpic and trigger works that will shoot a 1" group they cost no more to build and took only a little more effort to make it happen so why would I want a gun that is not accurate??? I hunt with mine so missing is not a desirable option. i cant take a neck shot iff needed with a gun that is pluss or minus 4" from were i aim.Has anyone really built a perfect AK with all parts in the best range of tolerance? Is the end result worth the input? I have always had more fun shooting into a 4 inch circle @100 yards than trying to get into a 2 inch circle at 300. Granted I'm not a 'long range' shooter, i prefer to have fun and practice more at 100 or less. I hope my comments are appropriate for a thread on accurization. BTW, I'm a newbie here at Gunco but no newbie to the hobby. Nice info 1biggun
All comments are welcome here but Id perfer not muddy up the thread that I started to get the information on how to improve these guns. Id rather it dont turn into a debate on if its needed or worth it. Id like to keep about the methods used.
Please under stand that what I and others have done with these is not a a SLIGHT INCREASE . going from your 4" group to a sub 1/2" group would be comparable to one of your mentioned turbins quadrupling its power and cutting the fuel consumption by 85% by only spending 10% more money . The varmint rifle i show in these threads was built at the time for under $400 and at the time the accuracy was better than guns selling for over $1800 or more so that a pretty worth while endevor.
Last edited by 1biggun; 06-04-2015 at 09:06 PM.
I havent seen this add or heard of him. i was getting inquires from a guy who worked for AK Builder who was asking about my set up. Pehaps there doing some thing??I'm slowly moving ahead with the most perfect build I can do, looking for the most accuracy. I'm paying attention to fine details. There was on-line an item about a guy who lapped AK bolts. As I remember you could send your stuff to him, before assembling the receiver, and he would jig it up and lap the bolt to get even bearing on both lugs, just as anyone accurizing any other rifle would do. I'm unable to locate the site again. Does anyone have a link to it? Any ideas or thoughts on DIY bolt lug lapping?
What does your buid consist of?? before dong much bolt work the carrier an to bolt fit needs to be reduced as well as the carrier to reciver clearances. having a trued bolt in a reciver with a 1/8" of play will do much to help.
clamp your trunion minus barrel in the reciver and assemle the bolt carrer with out the extracter. set a dummy round or head space guage in the bolt and see if its in the center of the trunion barrel bore and square to it. this is a good start you can also use any rod that is turned true that fits the bolt and is bigger to fit the trunion bore as a cheap guage to get a good idea what is off. getting the bolt true is the trick the cnetering is not as likely as critical unless you have most of the slop out of the action.
lugs can be filled as well as the bolt face can be tued by turning a tool through the trunion with the bolt locked in place. Youe will need to make your own tools I made mine.
the toll I use is basicaly a sleave that fits inside the trunion bore that lets me slide a end mill or rod woth lapping compound on it. the sleeve keeps the spinning tool square too the trunion/ barrel. I file lap the lugs to the trunion to get the bolt as square as possable first. keep in mind that the bolt dont rotate until it stops. study it with the barrel pressed in and head spaced (but not pined as head space will change as you true things) use a dummy round loaded with your dies and study were the bolt is looked in fully in a ready to shoot position. that is were you want it when your truing the bolt face to the trunion/barrel bore.
A tight chamber is important or trueing any thing is a waste of time. the whole idea is the round is chambered exactly the same every time. Check out savages floating bolt head and it will make you think truing the bolt is not all that important but keep in mind there bolt head is still true( not cocked to one side at any time it just floats up and down side to side. but the face is square to the breach face.
PM me if you got questions
A fluted heavy barrel would be a great way to limit barrel flex. Here is my Super Vepr with the factory Molot fluted barrel. I'm able to keep tighter groups with this then I can keep with my .308 NDM-86.
I love this rifle. It has a folding stock with an 8 oz mercury recoil reducer foamed in place in the AR15 A2 butt stock tube. It has a custom hand guard off of an HK91 for mounting the bipod, PSG1 inspired pistol grip and 6-24X50mm Russian Veber scope from Kalinkaoptics.
Things that make the Super Vepr a great platform to base an accurate AK type weapon on is the 21.5" barrel (the new Veprs being imported look like they have longer barrels), the thick RPK receiver, the unique scope mount that has 4 attachment points to both sides of the receiver and rear sight base while still being quick detach. The trigger is much better then a factory AK trigger, but I may have trigger job done on it to reduce it down a little.
A couple things I like about the Super Vepr that are unique to it that I haven't seen on any other AK is the push button safety and the spring loaded ambidextrous magazine release. The one crappy thing about these in the past was the lack of magazines and high cost when you do find them. With the new 20 round steel magazines and 10 round factory ones common at $50 each. That is no longer a big deal.
00079 the Super Vepr is about as good as it gets in a factory built platform based on AK internals. id love to have one in 308 with the full length wood stock.( hell Id like to just have the stock. the push button safety is a really nice feature as mentioned.
there is two sides to the fluted barrel. some barrel makers say they have more indiuced stress some say they dont and they cool better. they deffinatly are a way to reduce weight and keep most of the benifits of heavy barrel.
what are you gettting for groups at a 100 YDS BTW????
Last edited by 1biggun; 06-04-2015 at 09:06 PM.
I'm getting clover groups, the thing is a tack driver. I did have the barrel re-crowned to more of a target crown. All the work done on the gun was done by Jeff at Arizona Armory, he's amazing!
I'm a firm believer that recrowning an AK with a high quality target crown is going to be one of the easiest ways to get tighter groups.
00080NO SWEAT.I just wanted to hear what you guys that know have done to maximize accuracy.
read the 22 pages here for a good start. I started to spread the word of what these guns can do and to gain and share knowledge as to what works and dont. your question was not much differant than any other AK owner who has never really tried to get much out of the AK. try a few boxes off good ammo or better yet hand load. buy a spare trigger set for under $30 and spend some time polishing the parts and working it or spend a little more and get a adjustable. MOST AK's will shoot 1.5" groups or better if the barrel is in any sort of shape. It might take optics and ammo and a trigger to make that happen but the gun is capiable.
the biggest change on a factory gun to improve your groups is ammo. You will not shoot good groups with steel cassed poor tollerance ammo. its no differant than any other fire arm. the second thing is improving the human factor by a better trigger, sights , stuff that allows a person to let the gun shoot its best. To improve what the gun is capiable of you need to improve the inhareted accuracy. that is what the gun would do if hypotheticaly locked in a vice and not allowed to move. decent barrel with a much tighter chamber will do a lot. c ontrolling the barrel walk or lessenig it is another way to improve things. tighten or loosent he gas tube pressure and test to see if it helps.
your questiond dont really bother me. ask away and welcome. I suspect if your experianced with rebuilding turbine engines you can contribute here eassly and you will be able to identify with how percistion has to maintained in order for a part to function . you comments that these dont have to be built to the perfect tollerance and still shoot is not that far off. I have a ferwsub 1.5" guns that have nothing fitted other than the head space and the trigger worked. its after 1.5" that you need to start really making things fit tight and it gets harder and harder to show a gain.
If you like 4" groups you will really enjoy 1" groups out of the same gun. insead of shootng the milk jug at 100 you can start shooting the cap of it
yeap it all has to be right. and the crown is a good place to start. cheap to redo.I'm a firm believer that recrowning an AK with a high quality target crown is going to be one of the easiest ways to get tighter groups.
what were your groups before the recrown???
Last edited by 1biggun; 06-04-2015 at 09:07 PM.