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Thread: ACCURIZING THE AK

  1. #11
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    THERE IS A TON OF SCIENTIFIC AND MATHMATICAL AN STRUCTURAL VARIABLES IN VOLVED IN BARREL HARMONICS. I FIND IT INTERSETING THAT THE MOST ACCURATE FACTORY BARREL'D AK IN 7.62X39 IS A AMD65. THE GAS TUBE LOCKS IN EXTREAMY TIGHT AS I FITTED IT THAT WAY TO KEEP THE TUBE FROM MOVING BECAUSE THE SCOPE RAIL IS WELDED DIRECTLY TO IT. ALL OF THE PICTURED PISTOLS HAVE TIGHT FITTING TUBE/SCOPE MOUNTS. I CANT HELP BUT WONDER IF THE SHORTER BARREL IS ACTUALY HELPING. THERE IS VERY LITTLE BARREL PAST THE GAS BLOCK. IM GUESSING THAT THE FORWARD PRESSURE ON THE GB ACTUALU HELPS PREVENT BARREL WHIP AND POSSABLY DAMPEN THE HARMONICS. SINCE THERE IS VERY LITTLE BARREL TO OSCILATE FORWARD OF THE GB IT IS MORE ACCURATE.. IT COULD JUST BE THE AMD BARREL IS JUST BETTER QUALITY.

    LIKE MANY LIGHT BARRELD BOLT ACTIONS WERE THE BARREL IS NOT FLOATED BUT HAS SLIGHT UPWARD PRESSURE FROM THE STOCK SHOOT BETTER PERHAPS A LIGHT BARRELD AK WOULD SHOOT BETTTER WITH SOME SUPPORT OR A BARREL TUNER?? ONLY REAL CAREFULL TESTING WOULD TELL.

    IF YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF REPLACING A BARREL OR A CHAMBER THE ONLY REAL ADVANCES YOU CAN MAKE ARE THROUGH TRIGGER WORK.(DOSENT MAKE THE GUN MORE ACCURATE JUST EASIER TO SHOOT) THE SIGHTS OR OPTICS (DOSENT MAKE THE GUN MORE ACCURATE JUST EASIER TO SHOOT) AMMO WHICH WILL ALLOW A GUN TO ACTUALLY SHOOT BETTER BUT REQUIRES NO MODIFCATIO TO THE GUN . BARRREL TUNNERS, BEDDING, FLOATING, PRELOAD ECT (ACTUALLY IMPROVE THE ACCURACY WITH WHAT YOU HAVE.) AND ACTION TRUING WORK LIKE BOLT FACE TO TRUNION TRUEING ECT.

    I PERSONALY IF WORKING WITH A BUILT GUN START WITH WHAT I HAVE. WORK WITH WHAT IS NESSACRY TO MAKE IT POSSABLE TO TELL IF THE BARREL WILL SHOOT. THE INCLUDES MANDATORY TRIGGER WORK, OPTICS, WITH OUT THESE TWO IMPROVMENTS THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN EVEN TELL IF YOU ARE GAINING OR LOOSING WHEN WORKING UP AMMO. YOU HVE TO AT LEAST KNOW YOU CAN AIM AND KEEP IT ON THE TARGET WHEN YOU PULL THE TRIGGER.

    LOCK TIME WAS MENTIOND AND THAT BIG HAMMER SWINGING IN A ARC BEFORE IT CONTACTS A HEAVY FIRING PIN CANT HELP THINGS ESPECIALY IN A LIGHT GUN ALL THAT MOVEMENT AND INERTIA HAS TO AFFECT YOU POINT OF AIM. MY VARMIT GUN IS 18 POUNDS APROXIMENTLY TO IT WILL LIKELY STAY MORE STEADY FROM THE TIME THE TRIGGER IS PULLED AND THE GUN FIRES.

    I DID GRIND SOME WEIGHT OFF MY HAMMER IN A ATTEMPT TO LESSEN ANY AFFECT OF ITS MOVEMENT. THERE ARE TO MANY VARIABLES TO TELL IF IT REALLY HELPED. IM JUST NOT THAT GOOD OF A SHOT AND YOU WOULD NEED BETTER RESTS AND CONTROLLED CONDITIONS FOR ME TO TELL. I FIGURED IT CANT HURT. I TOOK A SHOTGUN APROACH WHEN I BUILT IT. I JUST THREW AS MANY IDEAS I COULD AT IT AND IT SHOOTS OK. FURTHER IMPROVEMNTS ARE LIKLEY BUT THEY WILL NOT COME AS EASY.

    HOW DO THE AR GUY WHO COMPETE ADRESS HAMMER MASS AND LOCKTIME ECT???

  2. #12
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    So 1biggun, what did you do when you built your .223?

    Well I bought a 26" heavySavage barrel off of ebay for $110 new take off. I got bulgy bolt and bullet guide and from K-var and and Rommy kit. and basically made it all fit LOL

    It all started when I got invited to go praire dog hunting and had no firearms under 30 calibur besides my 22 mag. one of my buddies who shoots a Rock River varmit AR set up challenged me to build up a AK. I spent about 2 weeks nonstop building it.

    the reciver is a normal tapco bent blank with the mag well opend up to take a 223 mag and the trigger guard moved back slightly. there was nothing special done to the reciver.

    I focused on floating the barrel mainly and trying to get the scope mount/RSB to work as part of the trunion as much as I could. the barrel is just under 1" DIA forward of the trunion. the RSB is a combination of original and hand made parts fitted and welded together. I milled a solid steel rectangular block that was 1.5" lengthwise and 1.25" across to match the reciver width I bored a hole for the barrel to press through. I then hand laped the block to the face of the trunion that I milled true to the bore. by hand lapping it the trunion i have 100% contact. this in theory should prevent any movement between the RSB and the trunion when the barrel heats up and also vibrates when fired. my goal was to have any barrel whip, vibration, heat warping ect to take place forward of the RSB scope mount. I even considerd silver soldering it to the trunion. I did loctight it to the trunion and it is pressed tight against the trunion and was pinned to the barrel while under pressure. its as close to one solid piece as possable. A normal RSB was sectioned and welded into the barrelblock that had a milled groove in it so it could be welded in from the side via holes for the welds. the top is milled off and a block was welded into it so a hand milled solid steel weaver style rail could be screwd to it with 1/4" allen head screws. the rail needed to be steel so it will suport itsself were it hangs over the dust cover with no rear support. the scope moves with the barrel but is at the very back of the barrel. I figured scopes are mounted on the barrels of many accurate single shot break open rifles and it had to be better than mounting it on the very flexiable reciver. the reciver makes no contact so it cant affect the zero.



    In theroy the barrel floats forward of the RSB with a original set up there is a 1 1/4 gap between the parts and I felt there was to much movement and flex going on there.

    there is no contact from the forearm and the gas tube is loose fitted to the RSB by a screw and a stand off to allow it to float. the front of the tube just lays in a slot in the gas block it has about a 1/8" of freeplay.

    the gas block is another custom piece that makes it work it was made from a block of steel (the next one will be aluminum with a stainles sleeve for the piston bore. I used a AMD 65 tube that was modifed to float and a standard length original piston. this allows the piston to stick out past the shorter tube. the protruding part is then held in a snug fitting bore of the GB. The bore is about 1 1/4 long. the theory was the longer tight fitting bore would allow a smaller gas port and hurt accuraacy less and also reduce any weird barrel walking warping harmonic varations. I wanted it to act as much like a bolt action from the RSB forward as I could.



    the forearm is a cut up Saiga part that is supported by a milled aluminum brace that runs under it and is attached to the reciver there is a plate on the inside of the reciver. IMOO it is a little cobbled but it was what I had at 4AM in the morning the day before I left to go hunting.

    the bolt has the face milled true to the stem and to remove the bevel from the face to the sides of it. I trued the lugs of the trunion and the bolt to keep the bolt face true to the barrel as much as possable. it was mor of a eyeballing type deal as its pretty tough to hold it in position by hand. I have a idea for a jig that would hold the reciver and carrer/bolt assembly in place minus the barrel so that the bolt face could be milled through the trunon and true it. this would allow the bolt/acton to be trued with the bolt locked in to a ready to fire position. MY CURRENT GUN IS JUST A GOOD GUESS.

    The trigger is a very worked Tapco. a original would work if you can meet the compliance issues. I welded a tab to the trigger that allows a screw to hit the reciver and adjust pre travel. it basicaly just screws in untill the trigger is about to release. the back of the screw hits the selector shaft and allows me to adjust over travel. the trigger to hammer suraces are gound sanded polished to get it right it took hours. I made a trigger Dyno from a cut up reciver this allowed me to tune the trigger to 99% complete. the BIGGUN TRIGGER Dyno lets me do all the cutting grinding fitting with the trigger assembled so I dont have to dissamble it a 1000 times. It really sves a ton of time. I do the final 1% of fitting and adjusting on the gun. I take the Dyno with me on hunting trips in case i need to make major adjustment. I use one of those plates insteat of a shepards hook or C clips. that way I can do a repair in the field if needed. the hammer was lightend some and the area were the carrier rides over it was re contured to allow as a smooth lower presure cycle as possable. the carrier was recontured as well. the lighter the pressure needed to cycle the smaller the gas port needed to make it work as well as less movement of the gun from the action cycling this allows you to keep your eye on the target better and see the hits this is critical for adjusting for windage and elevation on varmits and gives a faster follow up shot. I have considerd that a ligter carrier and spring might possable allow a even smaller port. This would have to be very carefully considerd before I were to try it.
    the area were the hammer spring hits the trigger was reduced to allow me let the spring barely hit the reciver floor this will reduce the pressue on the trigger and give a lighter pull. it is really trickey to get it right. The selector is cut to hold the carrer back. IMOO This is a must for a target/varmit AK. I cant stand a closed action when i go down range and as touch as my trigger is I use it as a saftey while get ready to shoot. the selector were it hits the trigger for the saftey is very carefully fitted as there is very little movement to allow it to release the hammer. My next one will have a adjustment screw of some type as any trigger adjustment requires the saftey clerance adjusted to coencide with it. I had to add some pretravel to insure that trigger would engage every time and not possably double. originaly I shot the gun with no gas port or block and hand loaded every round i was able to eleminate 95% of pretravel and it made a differance in my ability to shoot it. currently I have a slight very light pretravel followed by a solid crisp aproximently 2 pund pull. It isnt really a 2 stage just FEEL you get used to. In away I like it as it allows me to actully touch the trigger when making sight adjustments on moving praire dogs with out a unexpected of target discharge. THIS GUN DOES NOT GET PACKED OR MOVED WHEN LOADED IT IS WAY TO TOUCHY FOR THIS its get set on the ground or bench and only then loaded.

    I DONT RECOMEND THAT ANYONE COPY ANY OF THE TRIGGER MODIFCATIONS, I HAVE DONE ON MY PERSONAL RIFLE. THE TRIGGER IS UNSAFE BY MANY STANDARDS. DONT DO THIS AT HOME YOU COULD BE HURT OR DIE OR KILL SOMEONE ELSE.

    The stock is a Advanced Technoliges Dragonov copy that I milled off the cheek weld and the sides as well and added a simple alumimnum cheek weld it was made form tome round stock and milled three sides it is adjustable with shims. Im not real happy with it and am going to make a better more adjustable one. the cheek weld is critical for keeping your down an inline with the scope. You spend hours looking through the scope and in a prone positon it is really hard on the neck. Being able to rest on the cheek weld is important after 5 or 6 hours in the sun. Im going to add a adjustable point on the stock to allow me to do away with a rear bag the adjuster will allow me to make elevation changes.. there is a Versi pod on the forearm and it is key. I wont go with out it any more. A bag or rest will be better for target shooting from a rest shooting groups but when laying on ablanket shooting in all directions and ranges at praire dogs the Versi pod is the way to go it allows paning and tilt as well. target acusiton and reacusition is key for varmits.

    the scope is a cheap BSA 6x24x44 and it is ok but not great. A better scope is on the shopping list. the scope is mounted about as low as possable and still get the dust cover off. I got some ideas to make it lower but will require some mods to the cover and a differant rail.

    It uses Bulgy mags and a narrowed Rommy carrer.

    Im working on a LH carrier charge handel this will allow me to keep my RH on the grip and maintain a sight picture when loading and it will also make it easier to fit a shell catcher as the handel will not need to pass through it. I would like a LH thumb operated selector lever as well. the dust cover is trimmed and has a rubber lip to protect the brass.

    Im collecting parts for a varmit II version. it will have a custom longer mag that will house longer 80 grain bullets an use the ammo that the AR guys have to hand load in 1000 meter shoots. A better barrel

    Or possably a 22-250 improved. There is going to be a converted Saiga 308 that will likely be 260 reminton or 6.5 round. It will have the same basic stuff as this one. I really want to get a praire dog at over 800 yards and not have it be accidental.
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  3. #13
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    I have an extra one from Cope's, it's yours if you want it.

    you have a extra RSA trigger group?? PM me.

    That's a bad a$$ build 1biggun. How about a homegrown version of a B.O.S.S.? Sorta along the same idea of the weights, just not as goofy looking.
    A boss sytem might help perticularly in a factory barrel but I think for it to be worth while you would need to address the ammo issues. I would like some sort of tuneable muzzel break. If and when my finacial situation gets better I plan on doing a highpower version of the same gun based on saiga 308 parts. that build will need a muzzel break for me to be able to use it on praire dogs. If you cant see the hit then its no fun.

    a B.O.S.S system or some thing like it might really help a thin barrel build. I have been some thing that I can acctually pack around and hunt with. the varmit build is 18 pounds way to heavy. I have never fired it standing up. I would like a light weight fun to carry 223 or simular round that could be packed all day. Im thinking 22" light barrel a boss sytem ight make it more accurate. I was thinking of a more traditional build with a stock looking RSB and GB. I would retain the scope mount however.

    I need to research muzzel breaks and barrel tunners. Do any of the AR guys use barrel tunners in competition??? are they legal ??

    I have seen the browning BAR semi auto with the boss system making me think it would work on a auto loader like the AK.

  4. #14
    Gunco Good ole boy tanvil's Avatar
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    heh heh. Unfortunatly I meant a rear sight base.
    I've considered asking Hotbarrel turn an oversized break and a stopnut for me. I have a M70 300 winmag with a boss on it, and before I totally shot the rifling out of the barrel, it would hit golfballs at 300 yards with even the crappiest load. It did a lot for recoil too.
    The drawback is that sometimes it took a while to find the sweetspot and every load had a different sweet spot.
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  5. #15
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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  6. #16
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Any tips on receiver stiffening?
    obviously going with a milled would be the best.

    just off the top of my head a thicker stamped reciver would be the first step.
    A Yugo M70 thick reciver and a the heavier trunion that goes with it would be a good start. fully heat treating would also help. the NDS yugo reciver comes to mind. mine is pretty stiff compared to the Tapco bent blank in my varmit build. I suspose someone could weld thicker sides or perhaps a thicker bottom to a standard reciver. or maybe some angle iron type plates along the bottom edges might help. it would be ugly but If it helps id be for it.

    in all honesty I dont think it will make much differance since everyting happens in the trunion and bolt forward. all the reciver does is support the carrier. keeping the scope mount isolated from the reciver would be the best route IMOO. A thicker heavier M70 trunion might give some benefits.

    I suspose that how the bolt is suported in the rear must affect as do the likely differant harmonics that a milled reciver has over a stamped must have some affect as well.

    It has also occured to me that a stamped reciver MIGHT actually work as a dampner and improve accuracy.

    a heaver milled reciver would allow you to shoot steadier since the gun is heavier and lock time and hammer swing would not cause as much movement.

    I have read reports of both sides claiming the best accuracy.

    IN ALL HONESTY I DONT KNOW IF ANY OF THE TRICKS I USED ON MY BUILD MADE ANY DIFFERANCE! ITS POSSABLE THAT JUST ADDING THE HEAVY SAVAGE BARREL WOULD HAVE GIVEN THE SAME RESULTS. YOU WOULD HAVE TO MODIFY THE STOCK COMPONETS MAKE THEM FIT THE LARGE ID HOWEVER. I WOULD LIKE TO DO A UN FLOATED STOCK GAS TUBE VERSION AND SEE HOW IT GOES.

    IMOO ANY SERIOUS BUILD NEEDS TO START WITH A QUALITY BARREL. THE BARREL IS THE HEART OF ANY GUN. MY BARREL IS THE BOTTOM OF THE GOOD PILE. IT IS STILL A MASS PRODUCED SAVAGE BARREL.

    IF I HAD NO BUGET I WOULD START WITH A $400+ BENCH REST BLANK HAVE IT CUSTOM CHAMBERD TO MATCH MY CUSTOM BRASS.

    I WOULD LIKE TO TRY A MILLED RECIVER BUT IT WILL NEED TO HAVE TIGHTER CLEARANCES THICKER RAILS TRUER LUGS I WOULD LIKE RAILS THAT COULD BE FITTED TO THE CARRER .
    I WOULD WANT A BOLT WITH A SMALLER FIRING PIN DIA AND A LIGHTER TITIANUM PIN. AND TRUER LUGS AND A TIGHTER STEM TO CARRIER FIT. I WOULD WANT THE ROTATION OF THE LUGS TO BE MORE CONSISTANT ON LOCK UP. THE FGC NEEDS LESS MASS. OF COURSE THERE WOULD BE A $3000 SCOPE SITTING ON TOP OF IT.
    IN THE REAL WORLD WORKING WITH WHAT IS READLY AVALIBLE WITH A FEW CUSTOM PARTS LIKE SCOPE MOUNTS AND GAS BLOCKS. A DECENT SHOOTING AK CAN BE BUILT IF YOU START WITH A DECENT BARREL.

    MY GUN WILL OUT SHOOT MANY REMINGTON MODEL 700,S 223's WITH LIGHT BARRELS. THE REMINGTON 700 HAS BEEN THE BASE OF SOME OF THE MOST ACCURATE GUNS IN THE WORLD, BUT THE BARREL AND TRUING IS WHAT MAKES THEM GOOD. THE 700 LIKE THE AK WILL ONLY SHOOT AS GOOD AS ITS BARREL.

  7. #17
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Nice, thats what i have been looking for, i knew someone had built up a badass AK for long range shooting!! so it shoots semi and single shot?
    NO currently it is now only a semi auto. I shot it the first year. with no gas block or gas port. accuracy was as far as i could tell the same as with the gas system installed possably better with the gas system. maybe that big ugly heavy solid steel GB I made is acually tuning the barrel or affecting harmonics. it likely weighs a pound or more. I has to have had some affect. positive or negitive I cant tell you.

    I avoided the urge to go with a adjustable gas block or a gas shut off. to make it adustable a bigger hloe would have been required and might hurt accuracy. I just went with the smallest hole that worked with my hand loads and added a few thousands for added insurance and the ability to shoot lighter loads down the road.

  8. #18
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    IT WAS BUILT SPECIFICALY AS A 223 FROM THE GROUND UP, AND SPECIFICALY AS A VARMIT RIFLE, AND MORE SPECIFICALY FOR SHOOTING PRAIRE DOGS FROM THE PRONE POSITION FROM THE GROUND. THE GUN WAS BUILT FROM A ROMMY G KIT ROBBED FOR PARTS. THE BULGY BOLT AND BULLET GUIDE WERE ADDED TO MAKE IT ALL WORK. ITS A FRANKENSTEIN SORT OF DEAL. I HAD NEVER EVEN SHOT A 223 BEFORE I BUILT THIS.

    A 7.62X39 WOULD BE NO DIFFERENT AS FAR AS TRYING TO MAKE IT SHOOT ACCURATLY. I AM BUILDING ONE WITH A SPORTER WEIGHT STAINLESS BARREL 24" LONG IN 308X39. THE BARREL IS STILL HEAVIER THAN A YUGO BARREL. I EXPECT IT TO SHOOT SUB 1". THE BARREL IS A RECHAMBERD REMINGTON 30-06 TAKE OFF. THE BARREL WILL DICTATE THE ACCURACY. MOST OF THOSE REMINGTONS WILL DO AROUND 1" IN THAT BARREL WEIGHT WITH FACTORY AMMO. THIS WILL BE LIGHT ENOUGH TO CARRY AND DESIGNED MORE FOR DEER HUNTING AND SHOOTING FROM A STANDING POSITION. IF I CAN GET AROUND 1" OUT OF IT ILL BE HAPPY IM HOPING FOR
    .75" AT 100 YARDS HOWEVER. I WOULD BUILD A TARGET BARRELED .308X39 BUT I HONESTLY DONT KNOW WHAT I WOULD DO WITH IT?? IT WOULD BE TO HEAVY TO HUNT WITH AND THE RANGE WOULD BE TO LIMITED FOR VARMIT HUNTING AS THERE AT ALL DIFFERNT RANGES. IT WOULD MAKE A GOOD PAPER PUNCHER BUT I DONT COMPETE AND IM NOT SURE IF A 7.62X39 TARGET AK WOULD BE USEFULL IN ANY CLASS. IT WOULD BE A GOOD TEST BED HOWEVER AND A GREAT GUN FOR TARGET SHOOTING. iM JUST MORE INTO HUNTING AT THIS POINT.

    NECK THE ROUND DOWN TO .22,6MM,6.5MM AND YOU WOULD HAVE SOMETHING. A 220 RUSSAIN WOULD BE INTERESTING AND FITTING FOR THE AK.

    LONG RANGE HUNTING WITH A 7.62X39 IS LIMITED BY THE SLOW VELOCITY OF THE ROUND. BUT OUT TO 200 YARDS SHOULD BE GOOD BUT AFTER THAT BULLET DROP WILL MAKE RANGE ESTIMATING CRUCIAL. THE ROUND COULD STILL BE ACCURATE BUT DROPING A LOT. IM NOT SURE AT WHAT RANGE THE INITALL 2300 FPS ROUND WILL REACH SUBSONIC BUT IT WILL BE A LOT LESS THAN A 70 GRAIN 233.

    THE 30 PPC AND 30 BENCH REST ARE RAN AT MUCH HIGHER SPEEDS AND CHAMBER PRESSURES.

  9. #19
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Making a gas shut-off valve make's all the difference in the world. (for me of course)

    No barrellllll flex.

    DETAILS PLEASE WHAT GUN CALIBUR IS IT A FACTORY BARREL PICTURES ECT. HOW MUCH BETTER GROUP DID YOU GET??

    IT WOULD BE EASY PLUG OFF THE PORT FOR SOME SIMPLE BACK TO BACK TESTS ON A STOCK GUN WITH A 45 DEGREE PORT. JUST DRILL AND TAP AND INSTLL A THREADED PLUG. THE YUGO M70 ALREADY HAS A GAS CUT OFF. I NEVER HEAR OF THEM SHOOTING MUCH BETTER WITH THE GAS OFF. HMMMM

    THE BARREL IS CERTANILY GOING TO ACT DIFFERANT. ON MY BUILD I DIDNT NOTICE A DIFFERANCE BEFORE AND AFTER I ADDED THE GAS SYSTEM. IN FACT IT MAY SHOOT BETTER WITH THE SYTEM IN PLACE. IT ALSO GOULD BE THAT THE BARREL WAS BROKEN IN OR MY CURENT HAND LOADS ARE BETTER.

    I SUSPECT THAT BY THE TIME THE GAS IS FORCING THE PISTON BACK AN THE BARREL IS BEING FORCED DOWN BY THE OPOSITE PRESSURES THE BULLET MAY BE OUT OF THE BARREL. NOT SURE.

  10. #20
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    A 6.5X39 WOULD BE INTERESTING AND A ROUND THAT THAT HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE. IF YOU REALLY WANTED TO STRETCH IT OU THOUGHT YOU MIGHT CONSIDER A 6.5 GRENDAL. IT HAS A LITTLE MORE CASE CAPACITY AND THE LENGTH IS DESIGNED FOR A 6.5 BULLET BRAS IS AVALIABLE AS WELL AS DIES. THE DOWN SIDE IS THE TAPER WILL MEAN IT WILL NEED A 223 TYPE MAG AND A 7.62X39 WILL NOT WORK.

    AS FAR AS AMD GAS BLOCKS THE ROMMY IS ABOUT THE SAME EXCEPT IT HAS A BAYONET LUG. TUBES ARE ARUND FOR THE 65 BUT THE 63,S ARE RARE.

    GAS SYSTEM LENGTH COULD BE A FACTOR IN TUNING A BARREL. ANY THING ON THE BARREL WOULD AFFECT IT IMOO.

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