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Thread: ACCURIZING THE AK

  1. #1
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Default ACCURIZING THE AK

    I WOULD LIKE TO GET A THREAD STARTED ON MAKING THE AK MORE ACCURATE. THINGS LIKE BETTER TRIGGERS, SCOPES, BARRELS, AMMO ALL THE TRICKS THAT HAVE BEEN TRIED ECT.

    I HAVE A CUSTOM 223 AK THAT WILL DO SUB 1" GROUPS (HAS DONE UNDER .5")AND A COUPLE PISTOLS AND RIFLES IN 7.62X39 THAT WILL DO 1" GROUPS. IT WOULD BE NICE TO GET THIS INFO IN ONE PLACE. THE GROUP IN THE ORANGE WAS SHOT AT 200 YARDS THE FIVE CIRCLED ARE BEFORE I MOVED THE SCOPE. THE REST WERE SHOT WHILE MOVING THE POINT OF AIM. HAD THE SCOPE BEEN UN TOUCHED THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN 10 ROUNDS IN A QUARTER. THERE WAS ANOTHER TEN ROUNDS SHOT AT THE SAME TIME INTO A DIFFERANT ORANGE DOT AND THE WERE DAMM NEAR AS CLOSE. THE CARD BOARD TARGET WAS WHEN DOING LOAD DEVELOPMENT FOR THE FIRST TIME AT 100 YARDS THAT 5 SHOTS TOUCHING IN SIDE A DIME. i DONT TARGET SHOOT IT MUCH JUST SIGHT IT IN AND GO PRAIRE DOG HUNTING.

    iM INTERESTED IN ANY INFO ON AKS BEING USED IN COMPITION AR FOR LONG RANGE SNIPING ECT. IM FLAT OUT SICK OF THE BAD REP AKS GET .
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    Gunco Maniac sjohnson's Avatar
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    Off the top of my head:

    Blueprinting the locking lugs, bolt and chamber for true orthogonal geometry and the tightest functional lockup possible;

    Custom chambering for tightest effective headspace;

    Custom throat for bullet contact with lands;

    Target crown;

    Heavy barrel;

    Receiver rails enlarged and lapped to the bolt;

    Receiver stiffening (or is there any way to let the receiver "float" behind a rigid trunnion/bolt/barrel);

    Lots of trigger work (is there any way to decrease lock time?);

    Gas valve shutoff;

    Custom, adjustable buttstock;

    Floated barrel;

    If I think of any more will post here. Basically, take benchrest tunes and apply where possible to the AK.
    I have a daughter. I tell her, "911 is what you dial after you're raped. 1911 is what you should have before they try."

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    No Hope For Me Coils's Avatar
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    The main thing I'd say to start with is ammo, quality or hand load.
    I help a friend build a Romy G, after sighting it in at 100 meters we put up a fresh target.
    Benched using open sights he put four shots in a 1 1/2" group and the fifth was about 2" from that group, this was with hand loads.
    I want to put a scope on one of mine and try some groupings with hand loads, it seems to shoot pretty well with open sights and cheap ammo already.

  4. #4
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    OT: Thank you for posting this. I had an epiphany and decided to build a .223 ak and thought of the one you built. I had been looking for your rifle for tips. I plan to use it at 500 yards at our local matches. Figured it would garner a few smiles and smirks.
    ID LIKE TO SEE MORE GUYS TRYING THIS. I HAVE NEVER COMPETED BUT WOULD LIKE TO TRY. I DO HAVE A GUY WHO IS A LOCAL WELL KNOWN SHOOTER WHO SAID HE COULD POSSABLY HELP WITH THE TRIGGER WORK.


    Custom chambering for tightest effective headspace;

    Custom throat for bullet contact with lands;

    Target crown;

    Heavy barrel;

    Receiver rails enlarged and lapped to the bolt;

    Receiver stiffening (or is there any way to let the receiver "float" behind a rigid trunnion/bolt/barrel);

    Lots of trigger work (is there any way to decrease lock time?);

    Gas valve shutoff;

    Custom, adjustable buttstock;

    Floated barrel;

    If I think of any more will post here. Basically, take benchrest tunes and apply where possible to the AK.
    __________________

    I DID A LOT OF THAT IN MY BUILD. THE BARREL IS FLOATED AAS MUCH AS POASSABLE. NO FORE ARM CONTACT, THE TUBE UST LIES ON THE GB, THE BARREL IS A BONE STOCK SAVAGE 223 1-9 TWIST 26" LONG. TURNED TO FIT A ROMMY TRUNION. tHE SAVAGE SEEMS TO BE ONE OF THE BEST FACTORY BARRELS. MY BUDDIES ALL SHOOT SAVAGE BOLT ACTIONS AND EVERY ONE WAS GOOD OUT OF THE BOX. i HAVE A TRUE BENCHREST BARREL FOR THE NEXT PROJECT. i REALLY DIDNT NOTICE A DIFFERANCE WITH A OPERATIONAL GAS SYTEM VERSUS NONE. i SHOT IT A YEAR WITH NO GAS BLOCK AT I SAW VERY LITTLE DIFFERANCE. MY TESTING IS NOT REALLY THAT PERCISE THOUGH.

    AS FAR AS THE RECIVER MINE WAS A STANDARD BENT TAPCO WITH NORMAL RAILS. i DID TRUE THE BOLT FACE UP SOME AND ATTEMPTED TO TRU THE BOLT TO THE TRUNION BUT ITS REALLY HARD TO GET IT VERY PERCISE. i THINK SOME TYPE OF JIG AND FIXTURE NEEDS TO BE DESIGNED FOR THIS. HOLDING THE BOLT IN THE TRUNION IS GUESSING AT BEST. i HAVE SEEN SOME PRETTY UNEVEN LUGS AND BOLT TO BARREL ALIGNMENT. THIS IS A AREAA WERE THERE SHOULD BE SOME IMPROVEMENT. SO FAR THE RECIVER JUST HOLDS THE CARRER AND IT ALL FLOATS. TIGHTER RAILS AND STIFFER RECIVER SHOULD HELP. KEEP IN MIND THAT ON MY SET UP THE SCOPE IS ON THE SIGHT BLOCK AND MAKES NO CONTACT WITH THE RECIVER. i THING THIS IS ONE REASON i HAVE HAD SOME SUCESS.

    MY TRIGGER IS A TAPCO (FOR COMPLIANCE REASONS ONLY) THAT IS VERY VERY WORKED OVER. WELDED TABS FOR ADJUSTING SCREWS AND GROUND RESHAPED PRETTY MUCH EVERY THING. IT IS LIKELY UN SAFE AND i DONT PACK THE GUN LOADED EVER. IT GETS SET DOWN AND THEN LOADED. i HAVE TO ADD A SLIGHT AMOUNT OF PRETRAVEL TO BE ABLE TO GET RELIABLE REINGAGEMNT OF THE TRIGGER IN SEMI AUTO MODE. WITH NO GAS SYSTEM i WAS ABLE TO GET AWY WITH NO PRETRAVEL. IT WAS A LITTLE EASIER TO SHOOT BUT i GOT USED TO THE SLIGHT PRETRAVEL PRETTY QUICK. iM GUESSING ITS AT AROUND 2 POUNDS.

    A DECENT STOCK IS A MUST TO GET A GOOD CHEEK WELD HOWEVER ANY STOCK WOULD WORK WITH SOME FOAM AND A STREACHABLE SLEEVE LIKE THE ONES THAT HOLD SPARE ROUND TO A BOLT ACTION STOCK. AT WAL-MART FOR $5.

    The main thing I'd say to start with is ammo, quality or hand load.
    I help a friend build a Romy G, after sighting it in at 100 meters we put up a fresh target.
    Benched using open sights he put four shots in a 1 1/2" group and the fifth was about 2" from that group, this was with hand loads.
    I want to put a scope on one of mine and try some groupings with hand loads, it seems to shoot pretty well with open sights and cheap ammo already.

    AMMO IS KEY IT BROUGHT ME DOWN FROM 1" TO 1/2" I USE NOSLER BALLISTIC TIPS 50 GR. STANDARD WINCHESTER BRASS TURNED TO LENGTH BASIC CASE PREP. FLASH HOLES DEBURED ECT. I DO SET THE BULLETS OUT AS FAR AS THE MAG WILL ALLOW. iM STILL A FAIR AMOUNT OF THE RIFELING. A CUSTOM LONGER MAG OR A SHORTER FREEBORE MAY HELP. I COULD TRY SOME ROUND LOADED BY HAND WITH OUT THE MAG TO SEE IF ANY GAINS ARE TO BE HAD. SUPRISINGLY THE FACTORY SAVAGE CHAMBER FEEDS AND EXTRACTS AMMO PRETTY WELL. i DO GET A OCASIONAL STUCK ROUND WITH WOLF CRAP WHEN THE GUN IS DIRTY. A TIGHTER CHAMBER IS A POSABILITY ESPECIALY ON THE NECK. THIS WUL REQURE MORE BRAAS PREP THOUGH. i HAVENT TRIED HEAVIER BULLETS YET. THE 1-9 TWIST SHOLD ALLOW UP TO ABOUT 70 GRAIN BULLETS. ON THE SUBJECT OF AMMO. GETTING THE ROUND INTO THE BARREL UNDAMEGED i PUT A LOT OF WORK INTO THE BULLET GUIDE. THE PLASTIC TIP NOSLER AND hORNADY V MAX WORK GREAT. HOLLOW POINTS SOMETIMES CATCH AND GET DAMAGED.

    Sjohnson - The only thing you missed is a Harmonic dampener for the barrel.

    i ACTUALY HAVE ONE I CAN BORROW (LIMBSAVER) AND WAS PLANING TO TRY IT. I THINGK ON A STOCK THIN BARREL THERE IS SOME GSAINS TO BE HAD. THE BROWNING BOSS SYSTEM SEEMS TO WORK EVEN THOUGH IT IS UGLY. THE STOCK BARREL ON A AK DOES WHIP AROUND A LOT. THERE IS A VIDEO WERE IT REALLY SHOWS IT. i WILL TRY IT THIS SPRING WHEN I CAN REALLY GET SEROIUS WITH SOME TESTING THAT IS MORE THAN JUST PLAYING AROUND.

    MY BARRLEL IS STARTING TO GET SOME WEAR ON IT. I HAVE OVER 2000 ROUNDS THROUGH IT NOW. I HAVENT PUT IT ON PAPER IN OVER 700 ROUNDS. I HOPE IT IS STILL GOOD YET.

    YOU GUYS FORGOT GOOD OPTICS. I NEED A BETTER SCOPE SOMETHING THAT LETS ME MOVE THE DIALS AND REPEATS ITS SELF. MINE IS A 24X BUT ITS PRETY BAD AT 24X. BUT FOR $75 THATS WHAT YOU GET.

    lol, in times past I spent a lot of time dreaming over at 6mmBR.com -- Best Guide to 6mm BR Rifle Shooting and 6BR Reloading
    I HAVE WANTED TO BUILD A 6MM PPC FOR A WHILE. THERE ARE A FEW OTHER GOOD CHOICES OUT THERE. I AM WORKING ON OR COLLECTING PARTS FOR 17-223. 6.5 GRENDAL, 6.8 SPC, ECT. i WANT MORE RANGE OUT OF MY GUNS FOR PRAIRE DOGS SO THERE IS A 260 REMINGTON ON A 308 SAGIA IN THE WORKS AS WELL. BUT FOR A PURELY ACCURATE TO 300 YARD ONLY THE 6MM BENCH REST AND PPC ROUNDS WOULD LIKELY BE THE BEST ROUTE. THEY ALLOW THE USE OF BENCHREST BRASS AND BETTER QUALITY COMPONETS.

  5. #5
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    with the 7.62x39 I think there are big gains in a tighter chambers some of the chambers I have seen are very loose especialy in the neck some are more than .012". some target rifles are less than .003 . running a auto loader that tight might be a problem but reducing it by 1/2 would likely work.

    im not sure a twist as slow as 1-20 would be nessacry or even stabilize a 150 grain bullet. the M1 carbine is a lot slower round. 19,00 fps with a 110 gr bullet. the factory AK twist is possably a little fast for the 125 grain bullets. but was reguired to stabilize the poorer quality bullets that some of the military ammo. the better the bullet the the better it will stabilize. or possably the design of the bullet. it seems that most of the bolt actions in 7.62x39 are around 1-9 or 1-10. as far as shooting cast I have no idea about shooting cast accuratly would be interesting if it can be done.

    I would like to try a 1-12 0r 1-14 twist as it might give more speed and allow more powder to be loaded with out high pressure with a 125 bullet. its funny you mention the M1 carbine it is by far the most inaccurate fire arm I own. I was going to rechamber it initaly but now the prices have skyrocketed i will leave it alone.

    Rifle Barrel Twist Rates
    not sure i agree with his 7.62x39 numbers

  6. #6
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Actually I am in the process of building a more accurate AK for myself. I am using a US made barrel in 7.62x39 - 23.6" long with the Yugo front trunnion on a 1.5mm receiver. I believe that this will be a decent starting point, although it is tempting to put the barrel in one of my milled receivers, but I don't think this will affect accuracy as much as I would hope.

    Mark
    Mark im not sure the milled reciver will help much as long as the scope is mounted away from it. in therory a milled reciver should give more percise repeatiable bolt alignment but it also might give different harmonics to the gun and hurt it. who knows?? it would be interesting to put the same barrel on both types of recivers and do back to back comparisons. I am certain that a stamped reciver can shoot under .75'" groups as my gun has done well under that and can mantain a .75 average group with varmit bullets.

    on your US made barrel it would be interesting to rechamber it with a slightly tighter reamer before you build it. (not something you are likely going to want to do due to cost)

    the Clymer reamers I have are piloted for a .308 barrel but unfortunatly have the neck clearance cut for a .311 bullet with a brass case. im guessing this will allow a guy to ream a .308 bore but still be able to chamber military .311 ammo. the problem is when sizing brass for a .308 bullet you end up with more neck clearance than desirable. I want a reamer that is made for a .308 bullet in a 308 bore. it may not allow chambering of a a .311 bullet as the neck would be to tight. I may in the future have a custom reamer made for a specific .308 bore.

    there have been some very accurate .308x39 benchrest and target style rifles built. Im talking groups under .020"

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    30BR Guide - 30 BR Benchrest Lapua Cartridge with Reloading, .308 Bullet, Accuracy, and Competition Info

    the 30 BR has always been interesting to me. very simular to the 308x1.5 barnes a round that I have been posting about wanting to do for years.


    7.62 x 39 would likely stabilize better with a slower twist bbl. something on par of 1 in 16 to 1 in 20 twist. This slower twist also: wears slower, and is better for cast lead bullets.
    what is interesting is that those guys are shooting 1-17 twists with 125 grain bullets, they are really pushing the round in pressure. 3000 fps is cooking so the pressures must be up there. the above link does give some good insight into barrel twist however and gives what Kendwell was saying about barrel slower twist. very interesting

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    30 ppc - Benchrest Central Forums

    1-17 TWIST AGAIN THIS TIME WITH A .30 PPC (THIS WOULD BE A EASY CONVERSION IN A AK)

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    7
    THE ABOVE LINK HAS SOME GOOD INFO AND CHECK OUT THE GROUPS. UNDER .020"
    HMM A 1-10 BARREL ON THIS ONE.

  10. #10
    KTV
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
    any links?? any thing that affects barrel harmonics will affect accuracy one way or another.
    Centerfire Tuner Theory:
    Precision Shooting Magazine - March- 2005 (Vol. 52 - No. 11)


    Joe Friedrich's BR rimfire - note the harmonic dampener mid-barrel, and the tuner with weights attached on the muzzle:
    Friedrich's Record-Setting Rimfires

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