Gunco Forums banner

5.45x39 pistol??

7K views 74 replies 19 participants last post by  Toten Kopf 
#1 ·
I am thinking that when the AWB sunsets that a pistol in 5.45 would be sweet. Here is a pic of the barrel I am thinking of using. (the one on top, the bottom one is a krink barrel for comparison).


Now if I figure this correctly, that when the AWB ban goes away there are no weight restrictions for pistols, am I correct to assume this? Also would front handguards be a big no-no or can they be used on a pistol? Lastly I am thinking of one of these front sight combos




Would one be better than another? I figure also that if front handguards can be used - great. If not I am sure there could be found another way to help the gun to balance right (like using one hand on the magazine the other on the pistol grip). Do you all think this would be a great project or not? I'm sure others have already thought of it, but am curious.
 
See less See more
3
#28 ·
OK I am getting the pieces together, mainly because I have tons of parts laying around.

Here's a consideration: The size of the gas block I.D. vs. the barrel O.D.

I just measured the barrel, and it is ~ .591" OD.

I referenced my AK-103 clone build to get the Gas Block ID:

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK/reaming/reaming.htm

Gas Block = .591. That means and interference fit of ~ .000. or -0.001. In other words, the Gas Block may be too loose for the barrel, requiring the barrel diameter to be raised.

Question: How loose is TOO loose? I need to order another gas block anyway for my AK-101 build, but I wonder if anyone has a GB laying around to get the measurement? Would .000 / -.001 be acceptable after the cross pins are installed?

Question: I know that in the machinists' world, you use a knurling tool to "raise" the diameter when the fit is too loose for a press fit such as this (the knurling process raises the metal at the peaks between the grooves). I don't have a lathe - yet. I plan to get one later, but this may force me to make it SOONER if the press fit is too loose. It may be a moot issue, if the GB fits OK. Thoughts?


Oh, here's my other dilemna - where does one attach the bayonet?????

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK_Pistol/ak_pistol.htm
 
#30 ·
lots of great information here! I am busily taking notes and running some ideas around in my head. As for where the bayonet would attach, that is an interesting dilemna :dunno: :dunno: and would make for an interesting pistol. :scared:
 
#31 ·
Cephus said:
OK Jerry I think it's .950 or .975 and that isn't counting the the stop on the back side .I think that would have to be turned down ,Then You could add a shim No haet shrink it on , it would never move oh I guess you could pin it if you wanted to. I forgot do you have a lathe cause this is going to take a little work.
.950"? That sounds awful thick - my Uzi barrel is not much more that probably 15mm so I'm inclined to believe this PPSH barrel would be close? I've honestly never seen one up close. Sounds like it was built like a tank! Then again these are/were conversion barrels for the original 7.62x25 caliber...

Here's what I'm thinking... 22mm trunion = .866". So if these barrels are in fact .950/.975 then we have plenty of chamber remaining for a good safety margin. 9mm = .354 so there is plenty of room to make a nice press fit. Seeing how my Uzi is assembled, I doubt you would need a very tight fit!

Bullet ramp may need some tweaking. OK now I gotta go down and get my Uzi mags out to do some side-side comparison. Suomi mags are CHEAPER and are thicker around the top than an Uzi mag, but it will be a start.

No I got it make an oversizzed shim heat shrink it in place then turn down to fit , press it in then work on how to fix the mag well or just take an old mag cut the top off or in half if you prefur
Put a catch on the mag of coarse after you determine were you want it and just use the mag as the mag well. Let's make one.
That's a great idea... using the mag to "fill in" the void around the mag well! Brilliant. Could use an old steel mag? Hate to bugger a mag, however. My first choice is an aluminum block.
 
#32 ·
Another idea about the barrel....

OK let's suppose I don't get a lathe for some time. Just playing with my legos, er, AK parts, and made an observation when I eyeballed everything together... IF one were to file on the front and rear of the gas block in order to make the GB shorter from front-to-back, you could allow about 1/8" clearance on the front, where the threads for the muzzle device would be made.

Now, thread on the muzzle device and silver solder it on. You are silver soldering three pieces - the barrel, the front of the GB and the rear of the muzzle device.

The effect I think this will have is that you will have a pinned AND soldered GB onto the barrel. Problem solved!

Obviously the muzzle device would be permanently attached, but would this matter? Not to me... OTOH if you did Linx' home-made muzzle thread adaptor for the 22mm/23mm muzzle attachments, you can still enjoy removable muzzle brakes.
 
#33 ·
Update: Prepped the gas tube for resizing.

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK_Pistol/construction.htm

Added some additional images to the pistol page:

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK_Pistol/ak_pistol.htm

In the pics you'll see how I've superimposed the parts, to see how much I will need to grind down the GB and the handguard retainer. Both will need to be shortened, but not by much...


Cephus, I have considered that for a Krink build, but I don't know if it would work on this application. Well actually, I think it WOULD work, but you will need an even shorter piston. Mizlplick (sp?) has an AOW krink and it had the GB moved even farther back, so I know it would work. It may not be necessary, however. The advantage would be the GB would have more room, but I would do this only if there was not enough as it was. If you check my pics, you'll see that there should be enough room as-is. I plan to thread w/ 14x1 threads. If you use the Krink GB/FSB combo you should be OK, even if the barrel sits back inside the GB by 1/4" or so. Just so the retaining pins can bite.

- Jerry
 
#35 ·
opps sorry, just one of these day, whoeles coming saturday ??? maybe I can bring the AMD-65 kits make into a pistol . well I still waiting my upgrade Jig from 555th, Yes I send it back, he is putting the center pins for easy press.
 
#37 ·
kavik said:
So what's the legal verdict (as far as we can construe) on an AK pistol with a "vertical front pistol" grip - like that can be attatched to lower ak rail systems?

It is classified as a AOW.

Just like a AMD65 with no buttstock and the standard short barrel is a AOW(with 2 pistol grips)
 
#38 ·
#39 ·
From the K-var website

http://www.k-varcorp.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=1637


A note to AK enthusiasts:

The passing away of the assault weapons ban has increased the number of legal configurations for these weapons. It seems as if the sky is the limit for the variations that are now possible to produce. We have noticed, for instance, that folding stocks have become popular items in the last few weeks, as well as components to manufacture AK pistols.

However we would like to caution anyone interested in manufacturing a pistol on several issues. First of all the receiver must start out as a pistol. It has never been legal to convert a rifle to a pistol. In the past there have been successful AK pistols in 7.62 and .223 calibers.

It is in the issue of caliber that a hidden danger lies. As of today no pistol has been available in 5.45mm, the cartridge of the AK-74 rifle. It has come to our attention that once a pistol is made available in 5.45mm, this cartridge will be considered a pistol cartridge. Since most, if not all, of this ammunition is imported and contains a steel core.

The BATFE has already indicated that if this happens the ammunition will be considered an illegal armor-piercing pistol cartridge. This will have the same effect that producing an AR-15 pistol in 7.62x39 had on the firearms industry a few years ago. The imported supply of inexpensive high-quality ammunition was cut off. Currently no major ammo manufacturer is producing 5.45 and this caliber would be very expensive to make here.

So we would like to encourage anyone who wishes to build an AK pistol to use calibers 7.62x39 and .223, or any established pistol calibers. We do not need to create another crisis by shooting ourselves in the foot and giving ground back to those who would like to see our good luck reversed.

Thank you.
K-Var
 
#40 ·
Thank you 7.62 You took the words right out of my mouth. I saw this on another board and was trying to figure out how I could put a link to it on this site and you beat me to it. Thanks. I think everyone should take heed in this post. No sense giving them more ammunition to fire back at us. We should stick to the 7.62 and .223 pistol builds. ak'sr4me
K-Var[/QUOTE]
 
#41 ·
WOW that's a serious consideration I had not taken into account. I remember all the fuss about 7.62x39...

Question however, is not Wolf ammo lead core and therefore would not apply?
 
#42 ·
There is the rumor that there is some steel core 5.45x39 that might be imported. Don't know how true it is - but I figure I can shelf the idea of making a 5.45 pistol for now. if or until some big name manufacture makes them then maybe it will be a viable project again. Right now I can stick to the 7.62 (Besides AMD kits are cheap enough right now).
 
#45 · (Edited)
This is an interesting topic. Here's a few questions.

This will have the same effect that producing an AR-15 pistol in 7.62x39 had on the firearms industry a few years ago. The imported supply of inexpensive high-quality ammunition was cut off.
If the supply was cut off a few years ago, why has it been turned back on? Can someone fill me in on the facts here.

EDIT: I figured this part out myself. Thanks

Since most, if not all, of this ammunition is imported and contains a steel core.
Since when has this been the case? Most 5.45 contains a steel core?? This doesn't sound right.

The BATFE has already indicated that if this happens the ammunition will be considered an illegal armor-piercing pistol cartridge.
How will this effect the importation of non steel core 5.45 ammunition? Is all 5.45 considered armor-piercing or only the steel core 5.45?

Thanks in advance,

chargedmr2
 
#46 ·
Here's an article that will bring anyone up to date concerning the effect of the 7.62x39 AR Pistol on the importation of 7.62 ammunition:

http://www.thegunzone.com/762x39.html

It seems that the effect of building a 5.45x39 Pistol would ONLY have an effect on the importation of 5.45x39 STEEL CORE ammo. K-Var has painted a picture telling us that nearly all 5.45x39 is only imported with steel cores. I can't find this stuff in steel core anywhere. So the effect of building a 5.45 pistol would be NULL at the present time. It would however, prevent the importation of steel core 5.45 in the future.

When the 7.62 steel core was banned from importation it was a very different story. 7.62x39 steel core ammo was prevelent at the time and therefore both importers and end users were dramatically effected by the ban. With the abundance of 5.45x39 lead core ammo, building a 5.45 pistol would have minimal effects as compared to the 7.62 AR pistol. Again, there is no 5.45 available in steel core and unless there are huge plans to bring this stuff into the US in large quantities, a 5.45 pistol will have little effect on both importers and end users.

I am not saying build pistols in 5.45x39. I am just trying to point out the entirety of the situation. Let me know if anything I said doesn't sound right.
 
#47 ·
Well, this is by no means scientific, but I just but a magnet on all the wolf ammo in HP , as well as the rNC FMJ I have in 5.45 x 39 and all of them stick ( this is the BULLET not the case). It appears that the bullet is either steel cored, or is made of steel itself and copper plated.
.
 
#49 ·
yosuthnmasa said:
Doesn't lead stick to magnets too?!
NEGATIVE - lead is a non-ferrous material and therefore won't attract a magnet. Ditto for copper.

In fact, using a magnet is a fairly common indoor range test, to determine if your 'cheap' ammo will erode their backstops faster than plain lead/copper.

hth,
- Jerry
 
#50 ·
Well, this is by no means scientific, but I just but a magnet on all the wolf ammo in HP , as well as the rNC FMJ I have in 5.45 x 39 and all of them stick ( this is the BULLET not the case). It appears that the bullet is either steel cored, or is made of steel itself and copper plated.
Try that with your 7.62 wolf and see what happens. I'm all out or I'd do it myself.
 
#51 ·
chargedmr2 said:
Try that with your 7.62 wolf and see what happens. I'm all out or I'd do it myself.
The Wolf 7.62 x 39 HP bullet is ferrous metal, a magnet sticks to it. It must be a steel jacket around a soft lead core?
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top