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Thread: Obama's eligibility could become flashpoint

  1. #11
    Gunco Regular Akfite's Avatar
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    Ok the Right to Bear arms was given to us by our Founding fathers along with all the other's, All rights are earned and paid for in blood and yes some times innocent blood will be spilled. The Rights Are that inportant.

    Also in the senario givin where would the parents have been is the boy from a broken home?<G> Sociatal problem then not producing crimals

    How many innocents are killed every year with cars but no says take away cars
    and driving isn't even a right,freedom of transportation is not drivers liscense.

    People always try to logic out the control issue but if you do that it will never stop and you'll logic yourself right into slavery.
    Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows that as a government grows, LIBERTY DECREASES."

    Thomas Jefferson

  2. #12
    Gunco Maniac sjohnson's Avatar
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    The Right to Bear Arms is a natural right, not one given by the Founding Fathers but rather one acknowledged by them to be a Right transcendent of regular law. The Right to defend oneself and one's family and community members is the cornerstone of all of the other natural rights. Without the right of defense, no other right can long stand.
    I have a daughter. I tell her, "911 is what you dial after you're raped. 1911 is what you should have before they try."

  3. #13
    Gunco Member leopold stotch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjohnson View Post
    The Right to Bear Arms is a natural right, not one given by the Founding Fathers but rather one acknowledged by them to be a Right transcendent of regular law. The Right to defend oneself and one's family and community members is the cornerstone of all of the other natural rights. Without the right of defense, no other right can long stand.
    Well said sjohnson. The Founders of our Nation did understand that man was endowed with certain "unalienable" (or "inalienable" depending on which of the initial printings of the Constitution you read - both worlds mean the same thing) rights that we poses solely because we are human beings. These rights don't come from the founders nor do they come from our laws, our Constitution or our Government, they simply exists as the birthright of all men. Our Constitution was written to explicitly recognize and protect these rights that we already possess.

    One of the bedrock rights is essentially a property right. We have a right to the fruits of our labor and possessions lawfully obtained thereby. Given the right to our personal property, if follows that we have the right to defend our property from those that would unlawfully take it, and the founders realized that only an armed citizen would be able to successfully carry out that right to defend that which belonged to him. All of this is simply a restatement of what you said above and I agree with it all, however I think there is one more salient thought that should be added.

    The founders of this country did understand that power can corrupt, and if it doesn't corrupt all of those who become our political leaders it certainly will tend to attract those people who crave power over their fellow man. This is why in their wisdom they sought to disperse the power of the federal government into three branches, so that should one branch over reach the other two might reign it in. Even in our left leaning public education system of today they still teach these facts to American's children. However, many historians and educators tend to ignore the other way that the founder's sought to disperse and balance power; not just within the government itself, but rather between the goverment and the people. Contrary to what is commonly taught in our puplic schools, the founders did not put the 2nd amendment into our Constitution in order assure that American's could own firearms in order to hunt. Rather, they put the 2nd ammendment into the Constitution to disperse the power of physical force between the goverment as a whole and the citizenry. In other words, they did not think it healthy that the central government should have a monopoly on the use of physical force. They felt that an arm citizenry would "keep the government on its toes" and not allow it to usurp the rights of the people, or at least if it did the citizenry would posses the tools needed to protect or regain their inalieanable rights.

    It's always been odd to me that those on the left are quick to cry foul when they perceive that some company has achieved a monopoly in some business sector. They rightly perceive that monopolies are not in the interest of the consumer. However, these same people tend to be the ones who are anti 2nd ammendment. Apparently they don't want Microsoft to have a monoply in the computer OS business, but they are just fine with the Federal government having a monopoly access to firearms (i.e. access to physical force). I know which concerns me more and it isn't Mr. Gates' company.

  4. #14
    Gunco Member ak47paul's Avatar
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    I stand corrected,,,,You guys are right we do not live in a perfect world....And I have no good answer to keep wackos from mowing down a playground of kids...And I do agree that they could very easily do that without using a gun...I just try and look at things from every angle....I just think it being easy for any person that can work a computer and buy a money order, Being able to get everything they need to build a fully automatic killing machine gun is not a good idea....the problem is the Constitution is for everyone, including the wackos!!.....And should a wacko have a gun??....Well I do not really think so.....But he has the same rights as I do.....So who am I to tell him no......Which brings me to another question...why do so many buy parts kits and build guns?...I got into this hobby for the fun of being able to make my own legal working rifle and target shoot....And I would have no problem marking and registering any of my builds....However We all no there are others who are building for other reasons...Maybe they are a felon and can not legally own a gun....Or they are stupid and want to build an ilegal machine gun that if caught will land them 20 years in a fedral resort.....because unless you have about 20K to spend....legal full auto is out!!...Or maybe they are not mentally stable, And can not buy a legal gun because of that....whatever the reason....it is very easy to sit at home and order everything you need to have a working firearm to go and do whatever good or harm you want with it....Also how do you think it makes gun owners look to the anti guns, when we are going out and buying every bit of ammo we can get our hands on?????...And paying crazy prices...Kinda makes us look like wackos IMO......I stopped that panic buying shit the first two weeks.....I mean really what the hell are you going to do with all that shit???......I am all for being prepared...But for what??? ....WWIII????.......we are all guilty of buying into this panic shit and driving the prices through the roof!!!.....Now alot of us can not afford to go out and play on weekends because of the price of ammo.....And it fucking sucks!!..As fishing is not as fun as blowing holes in shit!!....LOL.......One more thing and I will finish my last beer and shut up and go to bed.....there are still people on here claiming "the sky is falling" just about daily....Come on guys!..give it a rest!...get the hell out of the house and enjoy the sunshine for a day or two...then you can come back and keep telling us the sky is falling....but give it a try

  5. #15
    jrs
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    B.U.F. (Bald, Ugly, Fat) jrs's Avatar
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    [for the sake of this point, diagnosed mental conditions equate to a guilty conviction]

    ak47paul, you're forgetting a small principle of US law - innocent until proven guilty.

    The 'wacko', as you call him, is just as innocent and deserving of his rights as you are. Until a crime is committed and a conviction obtained, the wacko is just another citizen exercising his rights.

    Or would you rather put him on a watch list, tap his communications, spy on him and generally deny his rights?

    Can't have it both ways. (but the government sure is trying to)
    jrs
    --
    "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.", Will Durant

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.", Edmund Burke

  6. #16
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Paul I undersand your concerns. how ever restricting the freedoms of the millions of normal people becuse one wacko MIGHT do some thing is never going to be the answer. That is like saying because a nut might drive down the side walk that cars should be banned or walking down the side of the road should be stoped.

    I have ponderd my self if there are not groups of terroerists sitting in basements assembling parts kits illealgy. but the fact is one more law is not going to stop them. Murder is the worst law you can commit IMOO and has the steepest penalitys if your going to commit that crime then no other laws are going to stop some one from doing it. little mikey is going to have to be able to still get ammo some were and that reguires you to be an adult, he is going to have to be smart enought to actualy be able to assemble the the fire arm. and he is going to have to have the tools and the place to do it. if he does it at home and his parrents know then they are criminals as well. then he is going to have to test fire it breaking another law. by the time he illegaly builds and transports and gets ammo and then plans a crime then carriers it out . he has likely commited 20-30 crimes. the truth is he can get all the stuff he needs to build a working fire arm at any hardware store. IMOO its a hell of a lot easier for little Mikey to buy a stolen gun from a crook that has likely been released multipul times from jail in the past than to build one in secret.

    responsibility starts at home want to reduce crime from guys like little mikey? controll what he does when he is 4 not 16. kids see way to much violence on TV, video games, rap music that promote violence. all the liberals who let criminals get away with crimes right up to the point were they are no longer correctable. All this gettho ass bull shit in the media does nothing but promote the thinking that leads to guys like Mikey.

    Right now the media is glorifying a DEAD child molesting pedifile, drug user, slime ball who just becuse he can prance around on stage grabbing his nuts and hitting high notes while danging like a jack ass with one glove on. and he is the tip of the ice burge. dont blame my guns on a liberal societys problems. maybe we should ban the internet because that is were gun builders are getting info??? NOT!

    ...
    why do so many buy parts kits and build guns?...I got into this hobby for the fun of being able to make my own legal working rifle and target shoot....And I would have no problem marking and registering any of my builds....However We all no there are others who are building for other reasons..
    how does it matter if I build one or one hundred if im not doing any thing wrong with them??? I enjoy building them in many differant connfigurations and caliburs. I hunt with most of them for several differant types of game requiring differant caliburs. there mine there properly secured and i am a responsable gun owner . I should not be restricted becuase someone is afraid of them that there problem not mine.

    as far as im concerned no one needs to know what im doing as long as its legal. I can register all my stuff as well. however when the goverment and states all feel they need to make money off of it and charge absorbenit fees why should I????


    However We all no there are others who are building for other reasons..
    [/QUOTE]

    tHE F@#k I DO. I DONT KNOW ANY ONE BUILDING ILEAGLE GUNS NOR WOULD I ASSOCIATE WITH THEM IF I DID. THAT IS A BULL SH!T STATEMENT

    IF YOU KNOW SOME ONE BUILDING OR USING FIRE ARMS ILEAGLY THEN TURN THERE ASS IN! IF YOU DONT THEN DONT BITCH WHEN THEY SUPRISINGLY COMMIT A CRIME. iF YOU WANT TO REGISTER YOUR FIRE ARM GO RIGHT GO RIGHT AHEAD WHO,S STOPPING YOU? GET ON A LIST OF PEOPLE THAT IN THE WORDS OF THE CURRENT ADMINITRATION ARE TERRORIST THREATS . THAT WAY WHEN A KATRINA SITUATION HAPPENS THE leo,S WILL KNOW WERE TO COME FIRST.

    I DO AGREE THAT SOME OF THIS GLOOM AND DOOM BS IS OVER THE TOP AND PEOPLE DO NEED TO RELAX. AND THAT ALL THE PANIC HAS DONE GUN OWNERS A DISERVICE. I I CSNT BUY MUCH OF WHAT I NEED i WISH i HAD STOCKED UP ON PRIMERS MY SHOOTING IS DIONE UNTILL THERE AVALIABLE AGAIN. BUT IF YOU THINK THERE IS NO NEED FOR CONCERN THEN YOU SHOULD LOOK AT THAT FROM ALL ANGLES AS WELL.

    ...Kinda makes us look like wackos IMO......
    THERE ARE SOME THAT GOING OVER BOARD OR TRYING TO MAKE A BUCK BUT IMOO MUCH OF IT IS CAUSED BY THE OTHER HALF OF THE POPULATION IN THE COUNTRY WHO DONT AGREE WITHTHE CURRNT ADMINISTRATION AND THERE POLICYS. THE HUGE NUMBER OF NEW SALES IS BECUSE A LEGITIMATE FEAR THEAT WE ARE GOING TO LOOSE OUR RIGHTS SOON. GIVEN THE CONTINUIOUS ALMOST IENTICAL BILLS BUT FORTH BY THE DEMS IT IS NOT A MADE UP FEAR. THEY POSTED THAAT THEY WOULD BAN ASSULT WEAPONS. AND THE AMMERICAN PUPLIC REACTED TO THAT. IMOO IT SHOWS THAT MANY MANY PEOPLE NOT JUST A FEW ARE CONCERNED AND AFRAID.

    ARENT YOU CONCERNED THAT SUCH A HUGE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE IN ARE POPULATION ARE SO AFRAID OF ARE GOVERMENT TAKING ARE RIGHTS AWAY THAT THE FELT COMPELED IN THESE TOUGH TIMES TO GO POUT AND SPEND HUNDRED TO THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON FIRE ARMS AND AMMO??? SURLY ALL OF THE MILLOINS OF HONEST CITIZENS WHO OBVIOUSLY FEAR THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATIONS PLANS ARENT ALL CRAZY OR NUTS. THE JEWS WENT ALONG PEACUFULLY TO THERE DEATHS i DONT THINK AMERICANS ARE AS EASLY PACIFED BY ALL THE POLITICAL BS GETTING SHOVED UP OUR ASSES. THERE IS AMMO SHORTAGE BECUSE MILLIIONS BOUGHT ONE GUN AND SEVERAL BOXES OF AMMO NOT BECUSE THEY BOUGHT 50 GUNS AND 1000.S OF ROUNDS.

    as far as the original theme of this thread I find it odd that you cant get food stamps in this country with out a birth certificate or or proof of citizanship but you can be president of the United States with out one! It is such a easy thing for him to produce or is it????????????? My gut tells me he was born out side the country but I dont belive everyt hing I read on the net or see in the media

  7. #17
    Gunco Member infamous ted's Avatar
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    gun control only benefits the tax collectors and the prison system.

  8. #18
    Gunco Member ralphtango1's Avatar
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    there talking away in god we trust,look at the new dollar coin
    soto mayor akorn, supreme court terms,free speech, (the hate crimes bill, )

    elections have consequences, they have voted for an Islamic president,the dollar is crashing

    little by little our freedoms are taken away,exercise tax on ammo........cap and trade...

    i think i am in the twilight zone.....or just a bad dream.........

  9. #19
    Gunco Veteran Markp's Avatar
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    AK Paul states, (sic) "However, we all know there are others who are building for other reasons..." and then offers a variety of illegal reasons that people would build their own gun. He adds that the "problem" is the constitution is for all of us... I don't see that as a problem.

    What about the legal reasons, like privacy?

    It's probable, that someone, somewhere, for whatever reason, is probably building something that is against the law. Perhaps as I am writing this or as you are reading this. We can't prevent criminals from being criminals... terrorists will continue to terrorize. Murderers and Rapists will continue to murder and rape. They will not respect any law regarding firearms... but will they build them... possibly. More than likely they won't waste their time with that, they will simply steal the firearms they want or need or acquire them through other fraudulent means.

    Even if you were to regulate EVERY gun related part manufactured or imported into this country by licensed manufacturers and importers the problem would remain. What do you propose, making raw materials, lathes, mills, and welders illegal? Are you going to ban steel tubing and drill rod?

    Maybe you believe that the sky isn't falling, but perhaps you are not paying attention. This country is undergoing rapid change via the new management. Maybe you yearn for Government run auto companies, banking, and health care. Our freedoms are continuing to be eroded and our future being mortgaged. Ok, so the sky isn't falling, but our government is out of control and getting worse! The situation is bad, and it is about to become much worse.

    Some pretty heinous gun crimes happened in the past few days... problem with that is: It happened in Chicago and New Jersey, models of the gun control movement. Gun control, gun registration, and gun laws don't work and they don't prevent crime.

    Mark

    PS - China and Iran have gun control, maybe we should follow their example. How's the health care in China? In Canada, your dog can get an MRI faster than you can!

  10. #20
    Gunco Regular yarro's Avatar
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    I was just in China again. Personnel of private security firms in China are armed with pistol gripped short barreled shotguns that have front and rear pistol grips. They also wear body armor and steel helmets. The shotguns looked like copies of Mossberg 500s. The government does not want easily concealable or weapons with range in private hands in urban areas. There are also quite a few illegal firearms in China as they are starting to have organized crime issues. Property crime is getting worse as well. I was told by my wife's family that in some provinces hunting firearms are fairly common as long as you are Han Chinese or a minority without a colorful history of fighting whatever government is in charge.

    I was supposed to go tour an armored vehicle manufacturing company my first week, but I got something on the trip over and was bed ridden for the first week. Missed my chance to drive a tank for another couple of years. The prior trip I went to a military museum and while I could lay hands on live artillery, they would not let anyone in the small arms portion of the museum without permission from the central government, which I could have gotten had we known that before hand. That and the other museum patrons thought that I was a spy and kept reporting me to security. No joke.

    There is no socialized medicine in China. You must pay before being treated. Health care used to be provided by your employer, which was owned by the government, but when all the companies went under or were privatized most, like my mother-in-law, lost their health care benefits. When they had it, everything was free. They even took away most health care benefits from government employees and retires like my father-in-law. When my nephew needed an operation to correct a birth defect that only one doctor in China knew how to perform, they had to bribe the doctor besides paying the hospital to get the operation done.

    -yarro

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