View Full Version : HK416
05-23-2008, 10:31 PM
I have read this redesign of the AR15 to a gas piston system makes them more reliable than the original direct gas system. Anyone here have experience with one? Thank you very much in advance for any information.
looks like every redesign of the AR platform leans towards
the AK design.
lots of politics in that statement.
05-24-2008, 12:11 PM
Most of the domestic piston conversions I've seen for the AR15/M16 have utilized the FAL type system with many actually using surplus FAL parts as they were available and dirt cheap a few years ago. Basically just a new or modified front sight/gas cylinder is installed and the carrier key is replaced with a solid one for the gas piston to push against. IIRC, the "Rhino" system was probably the first, first saw it back in the 80's I think. It used their own newly made parts but in overall design it was very similar to the FAL without a gas tube.
Moving the gas system forward and enlarging the parts keeps fouling out of the bolt and carrier, reduces upper receiver temps during rapid fire, and allows more dirt to accumulate before stoppages start happening. A valid consideration for a grunt but less so for the civilian shooter. Very few civillians drag their AR through the mud and sand, do amphibious landings, or go days without cleaning while shooting offf hundreds of rounds.
I've shot a Rhino back in the day, can't say I noticed any difference between it and an unmodified rifle. I have no doubt that it would have continued functioning long after an original gas system would have been fouled to the point of malfunctioning. Since I clean my AR on a regular basis I find justifying the added $600-$1000 cost of the gas piston conversions pretty hard to do.
05-24-2008, 07:05 PM
i wouldn't spend the extra $$$ on it either --it is a neat idea and gets some of the dirt out of the chamber breech. but this is just one problem area on the ar15/m16 series. for a civie or LE type i can't see much to justify the extra $$$$
better mags would have a much bigger impact for less $$$
05-25-2008, 01:53 AM
I'd buy an H&K 416 the minute they became available to civilians. I wouldn't care if they were $2000. I'd buy it.
05-25-2008, 07:09 AM
Why buy it? If you can do the research, have the imagination, and have, or have access to; the equipment and tools.......... build it!
05-25-2008, 02:44 PM
if i had to have a gas piston-- i would get one of those $400 kits.
no i wouldn't put that much $$ in a HK--esp in 5.56.
i have trained with about every type of HK rifle and pistol up to 2006. HK is good. but i don't see them ahead of other firms like FN. in fact HK has turned out some real turkeys in recent years --like case less ammo weapons, the XM-8 and others--i can't really see how a g-36 is worth that much more than a m-4 although there all overpriced and over hyped. i would take a SCAR over either--
05-25-2008, 03:02 PM
When H&K gets it right they hit a home run and I think the 416 is a defining improvement on the M16 platform. Similar items are not the same.
03-22-2009, 10:55 PM
Why spend the big bucks on an HK, been hearing very good news about the Adams Arms conversion, will know for myself shortly, just ordered mine.
03-23-2009, 12:50 AM
I've heard the piston systems put more force on the bolt, and it makes sense, because the impingement one pushes the bolt forward, while the piston drags it on the lugs while rotating it...
03-23-2009, 01:19 AM
HK's are over priced, they are not all that.. The HK magazine for the 416 is a big improvement over GI mags but the Mag-pul's magazines are just as good too... If I was going to spend $2g's on a AR...piston system... I'd just buy a AR-180 and spend the other $1400 on quality ammo and mags... I like the POF chrome lined inside of the upper receivers that's an improvement, but remember piston systems are not as accurate as direct gas systems... they run cooler and cleaner but they ad parts count and extra weight... that piston moving back and forth will effect barrel harmonics and open up groups but ...The AR's real weak points are the undersized extractor, a plunger type ejector, the cam pin hole in the bolt.. (that is where they break..most of the time) a weak buffer tube/stock especially M4 stocks, and the tinfoil magazines bodies... other than that they are great rifles... B2B
03-23-2009, 07:39 PM
Not to start anything here, but... From all my studying up on the subject and looking into the differences between DI and GP the info is saying that the GP is more accurate. So much so that the military is starting to replace their M24 rifles with the newer Knights Armament GP 308. Now I know that each platform will have its weaknesses and strengths but if you purely go off of statistics and experience, then you will have takers in both arenas. Really, it just boils down to what you are comfortable with and how you use your rifle. If it is going to be a 'safe queen' only coming out for the occassional range day, then don't waste your money, DI would be perfectly fine. Now if you are the one who uses one everyday in a less than average environment with heavy usage, maybe, will be ultimately up to you, your budget and what you want.
03-23-2009, 07:51 PM
Now if you are the one who uses one everyday in a less than average environment with heavy usage, maybe, will be ultimately up to you, your budget and what you want.
The piston systems haven't had their bugs worked out yet, whereas the m-16 series in standard trim has been used by the military for 40 years, if it wasn't good they'd have found a replacement already...
03-23-2009, 08:53 PM
Not in anyway disagreeing with you, but the military is looking and have been, here for a while. I know of several military units changing out their DI for GP uppers. That is on a unit level but the military as a whole is looking to, apparently the Bushmaster/Magpul design is being modified to compete in the up and coming trials.
Just info, no flame.
03-23-2009, 09:41 PM
I may be wrong but I believe some of the special forces are already using the 416. ie Navy seals. I also think I read somewhere that the uppers on the 416's were designed to retrofit onto the m-16. One thing that may be holding things up is that they aren't sure what caliber they are going to use. From what I read the 6.8 SPC is or was the leading contender, but that there has been growing support for the 6.5 grendel. I may be wrong as its been awhile since I read the article. I think it was in Combat Weapons magazine. I'm usually a pac rat, but I've chucked everything since I'm almost ready to move and no longer have my back issues. Personally, I like the Sig 556. I have an AR and love that thing too, soo many different configurations.
03-23-2009, 10:10 PM
The military needs Congress to go alone with a replacement program. Congress likes 3 billion dollar destroyers that the navy doesn't want or 275 million dollar fighters which less than 50% are air worthy at a given moment. Infantry weapons programs including R&D costs generally cost way less than half the cost of the production cost of a single joint strike fighter. It's just not enough pork for Congress. They are building 3 cruisers for the navy even though the navy says that they do not want or need them and they will never be used after delivery. The only funded small arms programs for the general service give you 25 pound guns that shoot smart grenades, disable the trigger when pointed at friendly troops, and take video whenever the trigger is pulled. Then there is the NATO approval issue, which France or Germany always want their weapon and ammo to be the standard so nothing gets done.
03-23-2009, 10:28 PM
I agree with you all. The political crap is bogus. Our boys in the field need the best right here and now. And yes, I think the caliber was or is an issue since some of the afteractions reports out of Afghanistan were less than favorable for the 5.56. And the other factor to be seen is the current administration, whether they want to get the good stuff to our troops fast enough. Another rant for another day.
03-24-2009, 03:08 AM
Not to start anything here, but... From all my studying up on the subject and looking into the differences between DI and GP the info is saying that the GP is more accurate. So much so that the military is starting to replace their M24 rifles with the newer Knights Armament GP 308.
No problem, all peoples opinions are just fine....to discuss...but you are mistaken....and requiring more studying... Direct gas system are the most accurate systems in the semi auto... The M-24 IS a Bolt Action it is not being replaced (yet) by the M110 SASS it is being Augmented..i.e support Sniper/ M24 spotter M110 SASS... the SASS is not a piston upper but a Direct gas system...Just like the SR-25 AR-10, AR-15 etc... All things being equal.. ie barrel ammo shooter etc... The piston upper is will NOT be as accurate as a D.I gas system.. to many moving parts.. is is battle field accurate easy...2 moa is just fine... B2B
"All rifles built on SR-25 platform share same basic action, which is based on AR-15 / M16 system. This is a gas-operated system with direct-impingement gas drive, which has no gas piston. Instead, powder gases are fed from the barrel and through a stainless-steel tube back into the receiver, and then into the cavity inside bolt carrier through the gas key. Inside the bolt carrier, powder gases push it back against the bolt, thus first causing the bolt to rotate and unlock from the barrel, and then to cycle the action. The rotary bolt has 7 radial lugs and improved extractor. Both upper and lower receiver halves are made from aircraft grade aluminum alloy, and connected by cross-pins. There is no "forward assist" button on the SR-25 rifles; the brass defelector is present. Barrels are of match class quality, and enclosed into free-floated forearm, fitted with Knights-made and designed Picatiny rails system. Because of AR-15-style recoil buffer, which extends rearwards fro the receiver, SR-15 cannot be fitted with folding buttstock; most rifles are fitted with fixed butt, while SR-25 carbines are fitted with telescoping buttstock. Trigger is also of match grade, fully adjustable.
Military versions of the SR-25, known as Mk.11 Mod.0 (USN / USMC) and XM110 (US Army) have some differences from civilian rifles. First of all, these rifles are fitted with proprietary sound moderator / silencer quick mount, located on the barrel just in front of the gas block. These rifles also finished to military specifications, and equipped with back-up iron sights (marked up to 600 meters and installed on folding bases). XM110 rifle also features a different buttstock, which is adjustable for length of pull, as well as different style forend rail system and a flash hider on the barrel. Military rifles are usually issued along with Harris bipod, Leupold variable-power 3,5-10X sniper scope, and a number of other accessories, including soft and hard carrying cases."
03-24-2009, 01:39 PM
Thanks for the info. And you are right we all have the right to our opinion. If I am mistaken then I can take my lump, but I will do the research, been a while when I found the article, should have copied it but didn't. Anyways, no issues, no probs. You know, I see where all you who have used DI in harms way are coming from and the years of service the 16 has had. I do not at all claim that it is no good or has serious issues, I was just mentioning that some think that going GP does make the platform better for the different reasons. Again, maybe the article was a advertisement for the SASS but I remember it saying that the SASS was replacing the M24. Now, I could be wrong and it is my bad for not copying the article but that is what I remember reading, like I said, will research it a bit further and give links or just copy the text and post again. One other thing, I so much like this site better, civil and professional discussion go alot further than flames and insults. That is why I am here and not THERE. Thanks  for being professional in your responses, I in no way think I know it all or everything. I've just used my platform on the mean streets of this great US of A and have not ever had to use it in anger.
03-24-2009, 04:42 PM
... Again, maybe the article was a advertisement for the SASS but I remember it saying that the SASS was replacing the M24. Now, I could be wrong and it is my bad for not copying the article but that is what I remember reading, like I said, will research it a bit further and give links or just copy the text and post again.
The bolt cracking and the offcenter force was mentioned by Reed Knight in an interview with some "mall ninja" magazine...
One other thing, I so much like this site better, civil and professional discussion go alot further than flames and insults.
I don't see that often, probably because I go to the less traveled sites, the smaller sites usually have nicer people than the huge ones...
The 416s are pretty well proven now.... Still wouldn't spend all that money on them though