View Full Version : Opinions on next build
03-31-2005, 01:52 AM
With the return of my Armory receiver today I am thinking of which direction to take the next build. I have pulled every stop to come up with some folder stuff and am thinking I need to have a brother for my 101 and 105. My thought is a 103. I don't have a black 7.62 so that seems like a logical solution.
My thought was to use a Romy kit, pull the FSB and GB, exchange them to 24mm and 90*, use the Armory and dress it in black with the polymer folder.
Another option is a Saiga 7.62 conversion and go thru all that mess again. Lose out on the dimple, gain the Russian optics mount and have a new gun.
I am also thinking about converting my only fixed stock 5.45 to another skeleton folder, although I may wait to get another polymer stock and convert it to 74M.
Of course I have Yugo's and a Tantal coming, but that's another story all together.
Any opinions on which direction I should go?
Dam , Looked at the results ha most are voting shut up and build something . I have a converted Saiga and like it . Working on a Polish folder.........So I would vote for the folder but for kicks voted shut up and build something.........
03-31-2005, 02:11 AM
well here is what I think you should do........build a SBR AKS-74U. with the liberals all foaming at the mouth for another AWB, I would do that..........08 is just around the corner sort of speak, and who knows who might occupy the WH. just my 2 cents
03-31-2005, 12:57 PM
I choose "none of the above"!!!
If it were ME, and considering the fact I've already converted one, I would choose "SOMETHING" that has a 90-degree gas block. Your Romy will NOT have that and you'll go through all the port plugging headaches that I did with my Chinese conversion. Doable? yes. PITA? yes.
ME, personally, I would either convert a Saiga (again) or choose some other 7.62 model with a vertical gas port.
That said, *I* would get a Bulgy 7.62 single-stack milled receiver for $200 from FAC, and strip it down. Scavenge the barrel assembly for your AK-103 build, then put that milled receiver under the cutting block to convert to double-stack, and use it for a milled receiver RPK clone. But that's just ME. :D
OTOH you could buy a $99 AK-74 barrel assembly from K-Var and ream out the parts, and plug that Romy barrel, which is exactly what I did on my AK-103 clone. OR buy a new un-cut Bulgy barrel from K-Var and build it from the ground-up with those '74 parts.
So any way you slice it, I would build an AK-103 clone.
03-31-2005, 05:33 PM
I dunno what you should do, but I like your polymer stock...very key man....
03-31-2005, 06:39 PM
If your not going to use one of those stocks, Ill buy one.
03-31-2005, 06:39 PM
That gas port issue just makes me not want to convert the Romy. I had way too much time in all the conversion process on the barrel for the Saiga to 101. I just didn't give the port a second thought.
The problem I see with the Bulgy conversion is the gas block has no lugs. Although I would end up with some decent parts left over, But the price is $269
I thought about the 5.45 stuff from K-var, but it's sold out.
I see money written all over this again...
03-31-2005, 07:16 PM
I can put a lug on that!
I've also seen an aftermarket screw-or weld-on lug for post-ban rifles. Was pretty slick.
Don't let the port thing bother you - it really isn't THAT bad. Besides, I've done it and know what to expect! In fact IMO it is really pretty easy. The biggest challenge I faced was setting my tilting table to properly align the port for the tap. In retrospect, hand-tapping would probably be good enough.
I tapped the hole & used a threaded plug, but others have used just a piece of drill rod and either brazed it in place or I think someone many moons ago just "press fit" it into place, and let the gas block hold it in place. Suspect that was a tapered pin. If you can braze it or "press fit" the pin, then that would save you the hassle of tapping the hole like I did. I think a press fit would be completely acceptable - use a large drill to "open" the top of the hole into a taper or counter-sink, then use a pin with a part of the end peened to engage the counter-sink lip. Heck, a 3/16" rivet could probably be employed...
04-01-2005, 01:04 PM
heh even a quick spot of MIG sanded down would work OK...you wont get any in the way of the bullet if you go fast....Good luck!!
04-01-2005, 02:51 PM
heh even a quick spot of MIG sanded down would work OK...you wont get any in the way of the bullet if you go fast....Good luck!!
JPI strongly recommend AGAINST a MIG weld on a barrel. I had that same discussion 2 years ago when I did my AK-103 clone. The only time I'd MIG a barrel is on the very end, as with a muzzle attachment, or the chamber end due to the additional metal content.
It has been explained to me and proven (on paper) that the metallurgical changes that MIG heat will impress upon the metal will warp a kink into the barrel, no way around it. Look it up, heat transfer in metal and the effects thereof. Even if you anchor the barrel in a vise, the metal is changed by the heat and will thus be altered.
Brazing will probably do the same, but since the heat absorption is spread along a larger area and more slowly, it would not be as bad, so that should be OK. Still taking a risk, however. Thus my suggestion of a 'press fit' to anchor the plug...
If you try welding, be damned sure you understand how the metal will react and adjust accordingly. TIG is probably the best, and even then you run the risk of ruining a barrel. That had better be a F-A-S-T weld.
Hopefully someone who knows more about welding will chime in here...
04-01-2005, 05:39 PM
Not to be rude man, but people that arent weldors amaze me with the info they will repeat....Having welded for a long time I can VERY STRONGLY advise that a TIG will in fact heat up a weld much worse then a MIG... I argue this all the time it is super simple to prove. Setup some 1/8" plate, .125" open root weld. Weld each one with the same width filler (.025) use MIG for one, TIG for the other. Do 1/2" weld bead closing the resulting key-hole. Be honest and have an assisitant time your beads. Now, do the beads and time them. I promise you the MIG will finish first. Now, when you are done check the temp of each bead using an infrared thermometer, the TIG bead will be appreciably hotter.
I used to get this same argument when welding the upper tube on motorcycle frames (welding cracks or adding material at the headtube). The "experts" would always insist on using a TIG, ok so we use a TIG almost every time, without fail the TIG would end up melting the seal in the bearing and making grease oooooze all out of the neck itself. When the same procedure is performed with a MIG there is not even enough time spent to warm the grease....
Anyway wether or not it will ruin the BBL is a matter of conjecture... I welded the beads on my SKS about 2000rds ago and have not had any failures yet. I have welded rifle sights onto shotgun BBLs, welded trunnions right to UZI bbls w/the MIG w/no problems (in fact Ill post some pics soon of my new trunnion and its 100% MIG welded to the BBL...)
I dont deny that the TIG is a cleaner more precise process, however it is a much HOTTER process. The Heat Affected Zone is much larger when using TIG because you must preheat the area then start adding filler. With a MIG it is instantaneous, as soon as the metal goes molten the filler is inserted and starts to freeze back to solid. MUCH faster than a TIG.....
But hey, it's america you can believe what you want. If welding a BBL bothers you, by all means use the method that makes you feel safest. I personally see no problem using a MIG especially when you're not trying for a lot of penetration.....
AWS and La County Certified Weldor (specializing in MIG and TIG)
Im NOT arc certified. I am specially trained for Ti and Magnesium....
SEE the beads below? They are intentionally ran cold and fat for as little penetration as possible. If you were to break one off it would probably only penetrate 2mm or so. Just right for a BBL/Sight without any load on it....
04-01-2005, 06:05 PM
man I hear you! you don't know how many times I get advice from backyard bubba the stick welder from hell or someother I read a do it yourself book expert try and tell me how to do my work and I too am a trained welder.
it really gets difficult sometimes to keep from telling them to stfu and shove off.:confused: dunno maybe I am just touchy about my work..
you are so right about TIG welding and heat sinking. the only reason you hear tig this and tig that is it has become a catch phrase on these gun boards due to it's small neat beads and the cocking tubes on hk's are tig'ed so everybody just squeals hey tig it..what some don't realize is a good welder can get tig sized beads with a mig welder properly set up.
04-02-2005, 11:43 AM
Hey I'm not a welder and just wanted to make everyone aware. YMMV.
I have a welder buddy with tons of Hobart coolness in his garage who makes and sells wrought iron furniture and the like. I thought it was BS and so I asked him, and he basically agreed with the post.
The question I posed is on gunsnet.net if you want to search for HCPOOKIE you'll find it in the (old) thread about my AK-103 building project. Don't remember the guy's name who said it but I sent him an "are you sure" email and he replied that he's welded for something like 20 years and does industrial machine work of some sort. So I'm not saying he's correct, but I'm not saying he's wrong either. He didn't strike me as one of the "bubba the dork" types and seemed to know what he was talking about.
Again, I'm not saying you can't weld on a barrel, and I don't think it would FAIL, per se... its just that I trust my buddy's opinion that you can't weld on a barrel and NOT alter the structure of the steel. Now, maybe welding a barrel will alter point of impact, but not loosen up the grouping - no idea. All I know is that my contacts "in the know" seem to agree that there are better ways to plug a port.
Now back to your regularly scheduled thread... Kevin I still think you need an AK-103 clone! :D
The more I think about it, for "continuity" I would convert a Saiga.
04-02-2005, 01:10 PM
I think the Saiga is actually the best choice for my 103. The other options are getting into more barrel issues than I prefer (after all the work with the Saiga .223 to 101, I just about got fed up with barrel issues)
04-03-2005, 01:13 AM
welding on the barrel with a 110 Flux core wire WILL warp the barrel.....ask me how I know.....OK I'll tell you anyway.....I over drilled the rivets out of a trunnion and since it want into the camber I thought I could weld it uo.....it looked perfect untill I tried to chamber a round and the case got really stuck about 1/3 of the way in. I thought weld intrusion into the chamber but no chamber was very smooth. The case had marks on it from the oppsite side of the welds....looks like the welding pulled the chamber mouth inwards. Totally fubar-ed the barrell but I bought a replacement barrell, trunnion and pin for 30.00 off Gunbroker.
04-03-2005, 03:49 AM
ok, The decision has been made, another Saiga will be sacrificed to the gods of non-sporting.
04-04-2005, 02:22 PM
Would you like to sell the stock?? I would be interested in it for a future 9mm build. Also would like the FCG parts. Thank you.
04-04-2005, 02:41 PM
"welding on the barrel with a 110 Flux core wire WILL warp the barrel.....ask me how I know.....OK I'll tell you anyway.....I over drilled the rivets out of a trunnion and since it want into the camber I thought I could weld it uo....."
Thats too bad man. Bummer to hear it for sure....The problem with those cheaper flux core welders is you are stuck within rigid heat settings... With my Lincoln SP-125 you get fully proportional heat and feed knobs. This lets you adjust it as needed. For instance when I weld a standard butt joint on 1/8" steel I use about a 4 on the heat and D on the wire speed, generally you keep them same-same as to their angle (the knobs have same scale size, one is A-G other is 1-7) BUT when I do a U-weld it AK flat I break from "convention" and run the speed much lower than the heat. On a standard butt or lap joint this would cause problems, BUT with the AK flat I am trying to fill a space left from the laser-cut kerf at the rails. As such I pull back the wire and leave the heat alone, this causes nice penetration with nice flat almost TIG like beads.
As someone pointed out YOU CAN get a MIG to run beads just like a TIG, you arent gonna do it with a HF or even my cheap Lincoln. I have a Pow-Con 300 MIG that will run the sickest beads you ever seen, but it doesnt like to run below about 40amps so I usually use the Lincoln instead. I also have a Lincoln NT-225 gas powered stick/tig welder and I NEVER use it because its a pain in the ass to set it up to run 1 TIG bead so I usually use the MIG instead. Anyway dont be afraid to experiment with your welder. Also remember that the books are written for 90% of the people 90% of the time...You might be that 10% guy that needs to do something off the wall 10% of the time. If so you will need to write the book as you go so to speak.
The best advice I can give is to burn burn burn that wire. Nothing makes you better than practice. If you have the time and $$$ go to your local community college and sign up for a lab class where you use their welders to make whatever you want for credit. This is what I did when I was 16 and got certified. In one semester I welded 450hours after school on my own projects. If you want to make better looking projects dont just use the MIG when you NEED to use it, make a point of going out there and running it for an hour a week at least and you will get a lot better. Follow the set-up charts to get the machine close then mess around w/feed and heat in small increments and you might find it will run even better for you.
When you are running the MIG it should sound like sizzling bacon like BZZZZZZzzzZZZZzzzz not DUTDUTDUTUUDUTTUDUDT if it does you are going tooo fast on the feed or too cold or both. The #1 mistake most make is to put on TOOO MUCH filler metal. You should have nice low beads with minimal build up. The idea is penetration, put the filler IN the joint not on top of it, LOL.. It is generally better to be hotter than colder (to a point, you can crystalize the grain if you go tooo hot.)
If you are using a cheapo HF or similar flux core welder or bargain MIG that has rigid A B C D heat/feed settings you are never gonna know the true potential of the MIG process. look at it like this: Imagine how hard it would be driving your car to work but only getting to use 1st 3rd and 5th gears and then you can only press the gas pedal either 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 of the way open....You wouldnt be using the car to the best of its abilities in all situations. I highly reccomend spending the $$$ to upgrade to a fully adjustable MIG machine. My favorite (and Im biased since I own one) is the Lincoln SP series, especially the SP-125Plus. Its 110V 30amp 30% duty cycle (of course I have welded corrals with it for 10-15mins straight before....)and fully adjustable for feed/speed and wire size. It will even do aluminum w/a second gun (need a clean dedicated gun/hose for aluminum only.) and DC Straight polarity....
I hope I helped some here, Im not trying to make a LOOONNG post to bore you guys, Im trying to help :)
pic of SP-125 below. That bottle lasts me a longgg time. I also have a smallllll bottle for portable jobs and flux core for outside/heavy duty work..
04-04-2005, 03:55 PM
I have two sets of left over Saiga stuff. I stripped the Saiga yesterday and have all of it just laying around. PM me with an offer.
04-04-2005, 11:18 PM
ok, The decision has been made, another Saiga will be sacrificed to the gods of non-sporting.YAY! :D
Seriously, I think that's a good idea. I fondled a 7.62 AK at this weekend's gun show and nearly bought it for CHEAP and built another one myself... ah but there are too many bills right now :(
FYI, I just about got that side-folder template procedure worked out... haven't completed documentation but it is underway:
Dunno if you saw, but I did this a few weeks when I had some spare time. Don't laugh at the welds, I took the pics right after I welded and since it was still hot, I didn't brush off the spatter before I snapped the pics. Need to make some retainer pins and I'm set:
04-04-2005, 11:32 PM
I dont remember saying my welder was cheap. Be that as it may I do have heat, voltage and wire feed controls, I just dont happen to be a welder and I am self taught. I was at a build party and there was a guy there who is a professional welder and was TIG-ing holes closed on Tapco flats after they were bent into receivers,and I can tell you my MIG welds before grinding look much better than his finished work.
04-05-2005, 05:42 PM
"welding on the barrel with a 110 Flux core wire WILL warp the barrel.....ask me how I know.....OK I'll tell you anyway....."
You're 100% correct you DIDNT say you had a cheap welder. I assumed it was cheap because honestly I dont think I have ever seen a "GOOD" 110V flux core wire feeder except the lincoln SP and the cheap Hobies... Still tho I assumed and I am sorry.
You say you have heat/voltage/feed controls. Thats fine but if they are not totally adjustable between settings then it will be harder to get a perfect bead since the machine can never be dialed in EXACTLY... Again I assumed. A lot of the cheaper 110V migs have switches that click into position. So if you have A thru F on the heat you are limited to those 6 positions and cannot go between (like "A.4" or "B.2" so to speak)them to fine tune it. Lets say you have a machine like this and the wire is running just a tad too fast on 5. well if you go to 6 its gonna haul ass and if you go to 4 its gonna burn back so you're stuck at 5. With the better machines you could go 3/4 of the way between 4 and 5 and control the heat perfect. This holds true w/the feed also. I used to have one of those blue HF MIGs (with a bottle/regulator) and it was horrible. I ended up donating it to my high school so they can maybe use it for something...
Enlighten me...what model welder do you have?? IF you are still using flux core that can result in hotter welds. Flux core runs approx 20% hotter than MIG at the same settings. I would suggest switching to true MIG using 75/25 C02/argon and reducing your wire size. If you are at .025 go to .015. It might require ordering it but you can get all the way down to .010" wire... You gotta hold the hose straigth tho or it runs off the spool in the machine because it is sooo thin. Also when doing welds on a flat you should never ever do a continuous bead regardless of if its a TIG or MIG. As long as you do stitch welds 1/4-5/16" long alternating from side to side it should be fine. It takes some time but thats how you dont warp them. I promise that there are people out there that could weld them w/ 1/32" 6013 or 7018 rod in an arc welder!! I cant arc weld but I know its possible. Just like you can weld aluminum with an oxy acetylene rig, its possible just not common.
THANKS for the enlightening conversation, I appreciate it. Sorry for the longish post but I am passionate about welding...I enjoy it very much!!!