How to get your SBR, Dialogue thread

[BigAl]

i disagree.

i am not a manufacturer as defined in 7.4 and 6.2.1.

[Bret]

BigAl, as illogical as it may seem, kernelkrink is correct. You do not actually have to build the SBR yourself. An alternative way to do it is to have Inrange buy the receiver and build the SBR. They would then have to engrave the receiver with their information and file the paperwork with the ATF that they manufactured it. Once they received the necessary documentation from the ATF, they could then transfer it to you using Form 4. This would take longer and would be more difficult to coordinate. They would also probably charge more because of the additional hassle. The only advantage to doing it this way would be to have Inrange's name on it for the possibility of a future sale. I think in this situation, it would be much easier for you to do a Form 1.

[ff69]

what is sbr and what are the advantage ?

[BigAl]

Bret,

I just want to see it in writing somewhere. Where does it say, other than in 4A, the need to further engrave anything by an individual?

[mohara1]

No one responded to my request for information so I will share this response which I will directly quote as I received it today from BATF You will note that they also say needs your name on it!!!

This in regard to form 1
"If the applicant making the short barreled rifle will be the revocable trust. then you will not be required to have the reverse side of the application (The CLEO part) signed off on nor will you need to provide fingerprint cards or photographs. You will need to have stamped or engraved on the frame or receiver the name listed for the revocable trust. You should try to include as much of the true name as possible. Please include a copy of the revocable trust information with the certificate of compliance. "

Hope this is helpful
as it sure was for me.

Now a snap to mail this off
Krinkov here I come

[kernelkrink]

Ff69, an SBR is a Short Bbl Rifle. Under Federal law a "normal" rifle must have a bbl at least 16" long and an overall length of 26" or longer. If it falls below either measurement it becomes a Short Bbl Rifle under federal law and is subject to registration and a $200 tax to legally make or own one. The provision of law that provides for this is called the National Firearms Act, or NFA. It also regulates things like Machine Guns and Silencers as well. That is Fed Law, some states further regulate them, or even outright ban them.

Advantages are you have a more compact firearm, sometimes something not much larger than a handgun but with the power of a rifle. In many cases a semi auto build of a former short bbl MG such as a Krinkov or Uzi will look more authentic without a welded on bbl extension to get it over 16".

Big Al, bottom line is if you don't want your name engraved on it you have to have someone else make it under their license and SOT, submit the registration paperwork, then transfer the completed gun to you. If you fill out and submit a Form 1 you are the maker under ATF rules. If you want something in writing other than their own forms I suggest you raise the issue with them directly.

[BigAl]

once again i ask for where it says that. all it says under block 4a is the receiver manufacturer. all it says under 7.4 and 6.2.1 is licensed manufacturer. it says nothing about subcontracting or ownership that i recall. 6.2.1 and 7.4 basically repeat block 4a.

i'm just playing devils advocate. can someone post a letter from ATF regarding this?

i have several SBR's and all are engraved, but it is a stupid expense as there is nothing on the form 1 to substantiate this and ATF has no record of this.

[ff69]

kernelkrink, thanks.ff69

[kernelkrink]

Ok, here we go:

The top of the form states : Application to make and register a firearm.

Below that: The undersigned hereby makes application, as required by sections 5821 and 5822 of the National Firearms Act, Title 26 USC, Chapter 53, to make and register the firearm described below.

Box 4H says: Additional description (include all numbers and other identifying data which will appear on the firarm)

Here's the legalese requiring the MAKER to engrave his name and info on the firearm:

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 2]
[Revised as of April 1, 2003]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 27CFR479.102]
[Page 188-189]
TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS
CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PART 479--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents
Subpart G--Registration and Identification of Firearms
Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller
than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
firearm;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, the undersigned is the MAKER, the undersigned being the person submitting the form with his name on it in the #3 blocks. So, you are swearing under penalty of perjury that you are in fact the maker of the firearm described on the form.

27CFR479.102 requires the MAKER of an NFA firearm to engrave, among other things, their name and address on the firearm they make. You just swore under penalty of perjury that you were that maker when you submitted the form.

Box 4H is where you write what you will mark it with in regards to 27CFR479.102.

[SalBO]

Kernal is RIGHT......You are the manufacturer of the NFA weapon and your name goes in the blank. No way around it. Read the form instructions in post one........

AN UPDATE ON ENGRAVING....yeah, I know its late, apologies sent.....hehe

Tom Sawyer does not do engraving anymore. Here is the info for Ryan who bought the engraving part from Tom Sawyer. He does as good of work as TSE......

Ryan Buck
Orion Arms
651-210-6456 Fax 651-653-4870
07 FFL / 02 SOT
email:
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