Double Whammy - Health Plan and Cap & Trade

[sjohnson]

Here's another example, one of how our expectations have driven costs up.

My Great Grandfather Delfs had an annual checkup in the 50's. The doc detected an abdominal aortic aneurysm (AAA). The doc quietly told Ed that he should put his affairs in order. The doc continued, saying that Ed was going to die. The doc couldn't predict when, only that death was certain given the nature of the aneurysm. His aorta would eventually burst, and Ed would bleed to death. Nothing medical science could do would save Ed from certain death. Ed died when I was two. Cost to Ed, about $10 for the checkup.

My Grandfather Kinzer was also diagnosed with a AAA, in the 1980's. He received abdominal surgery to replace the damaged artery with a dacron tube. He lived long past the surgery, with never a problem from it. Cost to Vern, 10's of thousands.

My Mother is in a "watch" mode on her AAA. They can now use MRI and other tests to guage and watch a AAA. If and when she needs the problem corrected, they will go in through a tiny incision in her belly button and sleeve the AAA. Mom's cost for watching and the eventual repair? Could go up to $50,000, depending on a lot of variables.

Ed prepared to die. Vern paid for an expensive and painful surgery. Mom will be spared a lot of pain, and need not worry much, not nearly as much as Ed and even Vern.

People expect perfection from medicine. Ed prepared his estate for his death, today he'd probably spend the money like mom. Wonder why medical costs are high? Part of it is our expectation from the medical community.

[nkluksda]

The whole concept of so-and-so-makes-too-much-money is part of the insidious Marxist-Democrat plot of class envy and greed. One has to be constant on guard against it.

How much debt does a new doctor have when he/she graduates from medical school and residency? Usually more than $100K. What was their 'opportunity cost' of going to medical school; in other words, what did they forego in salaries while they were spending 4-5 years post-BS plus residency? Probably another $200K minimum. So a shiny new doctor is $200K behind in lifetime earnings, plus $100K in debt.

Now look at business costs. Malpractice insurance eats doctors lunch. If they are a small business, they also pay 14.8% of their own salaries in social security, plus taxes. Office space cost is $ per square foot per month. Staff - especially dedicated staff to deal with insurance companies - that adds cost. I went to an orthopedic surgeon for my knee - he had 5 gals working insurance. Plus 2 nurses, plus a gal working X-rays. He had about 1800 square feet of office space. If you figure benefits for his office staff, he was paying about $120-130 per hour for staff and office costs. PER HOUR.

Now add the piracy that is Medicare and some insurance 'partnerships'. Medicare pays a tiny fraction of 'usual and customary costs'. Very low profit margin. Insurance companies force their partner doctors to 'adjust' the fees. More reduced profit margin. You think they charge $5-6 hundred per hour? Average is probably around 200 to 250 after all the writedowns. Then they have to pay staff. The orthopedic surgeon I was talking about earlier told me he loses money on his office. It's only time in the OR that he actually gets ahead - and gets a chance to make up for the lost opportunity cost and pay off his debts.

You want good health care? You want a world-class cardiologist? You're going to pay. Unless, of course, you want to gamble with your health and hope the guy making a janitor's salary actually knows what he's doing.

On a related topic, have you noticed what the price is for Lasik? It's gone way down in price, even with skilled opthomologists. Why? Because there isn't a lot of 'government-mandated' insurance coverage and such. It's got true competition, because the buyer knows and pays the entire cost. Medical care used to be like this - and it was cheaper. No one thinks of medical insurance as true 'insurance' - a guard against catastrophic claims. It's more like a 'someone-else-pays' mindset. Most people have no idea of what procedures cost, because they never pay anything but a tiny fraction of the bill - then they bitch about that. Imagine if you had the same thinkign about auto insurance. Need gas? Insurance should pay. New tires? Same. Oil? Sure, why not. Does this sound ridiculous? Of course it does, but it's exactly how people think about 'medical insurance.'

Got to stop ranting. I've got a Scout meeting to go to, and this subject has my blood pressure up. And no, I'm not associated with any medical practice. I'm just a fan of capitalism...

[4thIDvet]

What hospital you guys work in. Damn. After my post my chances of living are 1 in 100. "There is 4th. Let him die."
By the way. As a disabled Vet, I get 100% free medical care at the V.A.. Which I would take over just about any private hospital I have been in down here.
Do they push people off the bed to treat my girlfriend? No but Drs. who did not belong there sure stopped by to say Hi.
I was an E.M.T. and worked with an Orthopedic Surgeon for 15 years while on the Ski Patrol.
Very interesting and valid points on the breakdown of money going in the Drs. pockets.
I also did accident investigation for Loyds of London at the ski areas. Which was the only insurer who would pick the ski companies up. This being because every other person we rescued off the damn mountains, sued us, no matter how good a job we did.
Now back to my buddies five thousand dollar plus bill. If the V.A. refuses to pay it, his credit will be shot. He does not have the money. He already got shot up in old Khe-Sahn and can not work.
So still I ask what is the solution?
Drs. are getting less dollars for there years of work to attain there jobs.
People are getting bills, valid or invalid, which is destroying there credit if they do not pay.
Medical insurance in out of the reach of the average American, unless your making 6 digits.
Private companies are buying Hospitals, down here in Florida, as fast as they can build them. No hospitals are closing here, so they must still be paying there electrical bills.
They sure are not building new ones because it is not profitable.
Was my post a put down of greedy Drs. Hell no. I would crawl across broken glass for my buddy Dr. T. at the V.A..
But the system is broken. What is the solution guys? Americans are dying because they can not get in the hospitals for care.
All this while illegals are laying down on the Texas border to be taken too American hospitals to get there "free" medical care.

[eyegun]

Originally Posted by 4thIDvet

What is this doing on a gun board???? Cause well, it is called the "General Discussion Forum" where we have fun and talk too our fellow gun collectors.
So you have heard my points on medicaid. Well am I wrong?
I visit lots of gun boards. But the fun of this one is people don't get on each others back too much.
Everyone is on the take. The system is screwed. So what may I ask you Sir, as a professional, is the solution.
Want copies of my girlfriends medicaid bills.?? Every Dr. in the Hospital has there name on them.
You speak of percentages. Fine. I understand what your saying. Medicaid only pays a percentage of the bill. Not the full amount the Dr. requested. Come on Doc. you know the game.
Put in enough bills for, well you know, Dr. Smith you play golf with, turned you on to that patient hay.
Do I respect you guys. Oh you bet I do.
What is the answer Doc. What???
Americans are dying out here without health care. Thanks for responding.
Hay. My eyesight is going. I need that thing you guys do for the eyeballs to help me see.
P.M me please. Can not see the damn target at 100yds.
American Drs. are the best. And so are you Sir. Thank You.

Sorry buy I'm gonna have to pass on the PM.

Out of fear of bogus malpractice claims (present company excluded probably), I don't offer any medical advise.

Also, no offense but I wouldn't take a patient who believes that a Medicaid Card leads to a Doctor feeding frenzy (now that is FUCKING HILARIOUS!!!). You obviously don't think much of doctors and you know SHIT about what Medicaid pays (FYI it pays jack shit). Life is too short and believe it or not I'm not getting paid enough to deal with patients like that. Also don't stereotype me as a golfer paying back other docs for referrals with a round of golf. Really. You should cut back on the koolaid and TV a little bit. Open your eyes and come into the real world.

How much should a Doc get paid? Well, if your eyesight, life or health is on the line, HOW MUCH? You can go to Thailand or India much cheaper. Hell, at the rate we're retiring American docs and making new ones, coupled with the dis-incentive of Obama's plan and people who sue and think Docs are a bunch of rich fat cats, chances are your doc in the near future will have English as his third or fourth language. Well that's your problem. Be careful what you wish for. Maybe you're already getting a peek into the future at the VA Hospital?

I always like it when people talk about other people making too much money. When the tables are turned the conversation all the sudden gets interesting.

Obama wants me to take a 21% pay cut next year. How about you take a 21% cut in your disability?

[4thIDvet]

Still can't find where I asked you too take a a pay cut can you?
Medicaid frenzy. Sure I will show you her next bill when it comes in. All cept the names to protect the innocent.
Do you know how much a 1000 illegals with medicaid pays if you add it up.
Always hated golf. Grew up on a damn golf course. The Drs. were cheap tippers when I was caddying.
Will I take a pay cut in my disability. Too late I already have. Our co-pay on medicine just went up. Plus "0" wants more money for use of the V.A. from all Vets. Least that's the rumor mill.
Plus if a Veteran who served his country and was promised his Vets benefits makes more than a measly $25,000 (combined family income) they can not even use the V.A. without paying.
Still can't find where I asked you too take a pay cut can you?
Think the question was. "What is the solution? Americans are dying without health care."
Still can't find where I asked you too take a pay cut. Can you?

[eyegun]

"I am not saying pay them and you well for your experience.
I think the question here is "My God" how much is enough?"

The implication is that doctors are getting paid too much and by extension should get paid less. This = pay cut. You said it in so many words.

I agree that treating Illegals is burdening the system. Deport them ALL- them AND their kids- right NOW. At least we agree on something.

Will you take a pay cut in your disability? You said you already did. Guess what. EVERY YEAR the guberment pays me less. Ever since I got out 12 years ago I have taken a pay cut EVERY YEAR. Just cause you got cut once or twice or only make a measly $25K doesn't exempt you from taking your fair bite out of the huge shit sandwich.

What is the solution? I don't know. Don't look at me- I didn't create the teat of entitlement that so many Americans suckle at daily. Maybe we should go back to paying people what they are worth and respecting them for what good they do for you instead of waiting for the slightest mistake and then pouncing on them with a lawsuit. Remember the crisis looming is not enough doctors. Too many people getting older and we have a net loss of 32,000 American doctor PER YEAR. I'm telling you now. When it happens you will realize I was right.

At least you have the VA that will always be there for you, even if your doctors are all in training and aren't native English speakers. Soon all of America will be experiencing VA style medicine. I guess we could always import doctors- maybe that will help.

Don't forget: you get what you pay for.

Pay me less and I'll turn more people away. I'm not the only one. There comes a point where I don't get paid enough to deal with PITA people and the altruism that I started with is getting drained out of me quicker than I thought.

[4thIDvet]

Your a good man.. Can we still be friends.
So do I still have any chance on a discount on the eye operation I need, or did I ruin that.
Me and my big Irish mouth. Damn..

[eyegun]

Funny thing you should mention about a discount.

All doctors are required to bill as stipulated in their contracts with insurance companies, including Medicare.

Medicare has a rule that they can't be charged more than anyone else.

This means that we're not allowed to give discounts any lower than what MC pays.

Sorry but the rules is the rules.


I knew there was some Irish in there somewheres......

[o.d. ak]

Thing is, its not just the healt care system that is broken. Its also the educational system, the financial system, welfare, etc.

Compound all these things together and .....

[blitz2311]

Originally Posted by scottbly257

Somebody has to have enough balls to do it. All I ever hear about is how we are getting the shaft and we all go back to living our lives still whining about how bad our Goverment is, but no one does anything about it. Why is that? Is this what we have become?

I don't know what we have become. It's sad b/c the healthcare and cap & trade bs is just sailing along and no one seems to be sounding the alarm.

In other countries when elections fail or leaders overstep their bounds, the people step up and take to the streets. Are we too fat and happy to really care?

I fear that is the case for the majority of Americans. They won't stand up until they can't afford their cable tv, can't afford their fast food or luxury items. By that time it will be too late.

We are the frog in the pot as our government slowly turns up the heat.