How accurate can an AKM be?

[mtdew]

I have a hungarian amd 63 that is wonderfully accurate. I built it w/ a .064 rec. blank, modified the trigger to a two- stage, minimum tolerances on rec. to carrier fit. I've not shot groups w/ it but I can knock a squirrel from the top of a tall oak tree everytime, open sights. I like to take it to the range to shut the target AR15 guys up.

[bellson]

Howdy,

I started out working on Enfields and Mausers, more on that later.

To make an SKS really accurate, you have to do at least three things correctly:

1. Machine the receiver and barrel to match, much like what you might do to a Mauser, keeping in mind that you want everything to end up straight and true. My attempts at this have all yielded good results; The starting groups are 1 to 2.5 MOA, and generally tighten up to .75 MOA.

2. TRIGGER. Enough said. This is a real pain in the ass. There are several tutorials on the web, and I have seen a couple of vendors selling "accurized trigger groups" for the SKS....I have my doubts.

3. Ammo. If you want Match grade results, you have to start with a match grade bullet (cartridge).

Similarly, the AK requires the same kind of treatment. The real way to get it all with an AK is like this:

1. Use a milled receiver, or a 1.6MM shell. Either way, heat-treating is the paramount requirement. The issue is rigidity under fire. A non-heat treated receiver will flex a lot more than a non heat treated receiver. Along the same lines, a 1.0MM receiver will flex a SHITLOAD more than a 1.6MM receiver. When you think about this, it is really an obvious cause / effect.

2. Barrel. Based on my (very) non scientific testing, the 7.62x39 round tends to like a 1-10 twist, and a barrel length of 22 inches. This will give you the ability to use projectiles that weigh up to 165 grains, with the sweet spot of 145 grains. 122 or 124 grain bullets will tend to overspin and loose accuracy at about 400 yards. 400 yard shots (from a vise) will have a normal deviance of about 5.5 inches. 500 yards shots have deviance of over 9 inches. I like to use a barrel blank in .308, and have it turned to my desired spec, which means it is thick and heavy. I do not use a standard gas block, I usually adapt an FN-FAL gas block or I make one. I should hve mentioned that if you like the AK the way it looks now, this is probably not going to be the route you want. Anyway, my method adds about two pounds to the rifle, and shoots as well as any AR. It is a lot of work for that type of accuracy.

3. The sights. On an AK are simply crap. I generally omit the rear sight block completely, and build a custom unit that mounts to the rear trunnion. Don't bother with the dust cover mounted units unless you like pain and suffering. The front sight is generally mounted to the gas block...

OR, you can save yourself a lot of time and money by buying a 20" barrel Saiga and converting it to AK configuration. Simply stated, those shot just as well as anything I have ever built AK wise.

[Rahatlakhoom]

I lean toward the Polish AKM for off the bench accuracy using surplus ammo.
The AMD-65 also seems to be excellent for a 12 barrel.
One might run into a FREAK Romanian that is a good shooter.
I'm referring to the 7.62 mm.

1biggun is however showing some incredible results.
Light years ahead of what my AKM's are capable of.

[[486]]

Originally Posted by bellson

I do not use a standard gas block, I usually adapt an FN-FAL gas block or I make one. I should hve mentioned that if you like the AK the way it looks now, this is probably not going to be the route you want.

You the guy that made the FAL/AK hybrid that has been the poster child of WECSOG on FALfiles? If so, props to you, always thought that thing looked cool.

[1biggun]

My 223 is really good but very modified. my 7.62x39 stuff with factory barrels is nothing really special.

Its likley 80% the ammo and the rest is trigger and sights/optics. I have had a few really good groups including a one hole.

I just dont think many people really try to hard to make these shoot. most guys buy them for plinking or blasting. few ever buy good ammo and the good factory ammo is not that great.

1. Use a milled receiver, or a 1.6MM shell. Either way, heat-treating is the paramount requirement. The issue is rigidity under fire. A non-heat treated receiver will flex a lot more than a non heat treated receiver. Along the same lines, a 1.0MM receiver will flex a SHITLOAD more than a 1.6MM receiver. When you think about this, it is really an obvious cause / effect.

I think reciver stiffness has a role in all this but if the scope is not touching the reciver its minimal. MY 223 varmit build has only the holes and rails hardend on a tapco bent blank and its very accurate. The scope mount dosent touch any part of the reciver on that build. reciver flex can affect how the bolt fits the trunion and engages the lugs but I think you need to get the groups under 3/4" or smaller to notice it. Its also possable (just guessing) that a stamped reciver will cancel out some of the harmonics. I dont have milled reciver gun to work with that has a good barrel so I dont know what the real differances are between the two. I just know I can get my 223 under 1/2" groups pretty consistantly and it shots about as good as the bolt actions that the barrel came of off. I think for me to get much better it would require more expensive barrels, brass, and likely some experimantation with a milled reciver.

I can run tighter taperd rails that have almost no clearance on lock up with a stamped reciver. its hard to do much with a milled unless some one sells a reciver that has tight rails. It might be possable to weld up carrier slots and recut them to fit a existing reciver.

I think before reciver stiffness has any real positve affect on things in a no scope mount touching it situation, 99% of the bolt to carrier and carrier to reciver play would need to be eleminated. what good will a stiff reciver do when the bolt carrier will move almost a 1/16" up and down and the bolt is loose in the carrier bore??

2. Barrel. Based on my (very) non scientific testing, the 7.62x39 round tends to like a 1-10 twist, and a barrel length of 22 inches. This will give you the ability to use projectiles that weigh up to 165 grains, with the sweet spot of 145 grains. 122 or 124 grain bullets will tend to overspin and loose accuracy at about 400 yards. 400 yard shots (from a vise) will have a normal deviance of about 5.5 inches. 500 yards shots have deviance of over 9 inches. I like to use a barrel blank in .308, and have it turned to my desired spec, which means it is thick and heavy. I do not use a standard gas block, I usually adapt an FN-FAL gas block or I make one. I should hve mentioned that if you like the AK the way it looks now, this is probably not going to be the route you want. Anyway, my method adds about two pounds to the rifle, and shoots as well as any AR. It is a lot of work for that type of accuracy.

Have you tried a slower twist???

I find it really interesting that the 30 benchrest guys all seem to use a slower twist. the 30 br is a faster round with more case capacity but there pretty simular.

I have a 1-12 Howa barrel Im going to try when i get a reamer that has less neck clearance than what my current reamer has.

I have noted better 100 yard accuracy with the heavier bullets as well.

a heavier barrel will help almost every time on any gun. Im thinking of trying a fluted barrel on a build to keep the weight down and help cooling.

Krebs has a GB that has over a 3/4" hole that while not cheap would make it easier for guys who dont have a mill to do a build like this. it also has the site built into it but could be milled off. this would allow a stock appearing heavy barrel build. I d like to try one if those Gas blocks.

I have not really shot my 7.62x39 stuff over 200 yards at paper. I hunt with them so every thing is based around 100-200 yards. past that you really cant get the energy and bullet expansion to be reliable on deer sized game. It would be fun to set up on 400 yard target and see what I could do with the x39. there is a lot of drop at that range. but it would be interesting. I dont have any were close to shot that far unfortunatly.

I did manage to kill a couple praire dogs at 250 yards with my AK pistol but it was luck and persistance more than any thing.

[hcpookie]

I would think a milled vs. stamped receiver would only affect grouping when your shooting FA or bursts. I don't see how it could affect the "first shot placement" but I don't fully understand the issue

[mtdew]

Originally Posted by 1biggun

I can run tighter taperd rails that have almost no clearance on lock up with a stamped reciver. its hard to do much with a milled unless some one sells a reciver that has tight rails. It might be possable to weld up carrier slots and recut them to fit a existing reciver.

I think before reciver stiffness has any real positve affect on things in a no scope mount touching it situation, 99% of the bolt to carrier and carrier to reciver play would need to be eleminated. what good will a stiff reciver do when the bolt carrier will move almost a 1/16" up and down and the bolt is loose in the carrier bore??

This is what I did on my amd63 and it seems to have worked. No play up and down or side to side in lock-up. The bolt fit in the carrier is snug. Of course you take away from the reliability when you tighten things up.

[1biggun]

This is what I did on my amd63 and it seems to have worked. No play up and down or side to side in lock-up. The bolt fit in the carrier is snug. Of course you take away from the reliability when you tighten things up.

that and you wear the tight spots pretty fast. Im playing with an idea of a adjustable center support that will allow me to tighten the reciver as it wears. My 223 varmit build is almost as loose as any normal build now but it took 3500 rounds. In target stuff I can live with a few fail to chambers. it often showes up as a slightly out of spec round were I missed some thing when I was loading.

I would think a milled vs. stamped receiver would only affect grouping when your shooting FA or bursts. I don't see how it could affect the "first shot placement" but I don't fully understand the issue

the accuracy can be affected becuse the bolt will not be in the exact place every time. any changes that affect how the round sits in the chamber can affect accuracy. if there is flex in the reciver just going form a bag to shooting it off the bench could affect things. were talking miniscule differances but thats what this game is about. how consistanly the bullet goes into the rifeling affects it. if the bolt is canted or higer or lower or further in or out it can all make a slight affect. thats why most good target bolt actions lock in pretty snug on a round if every thing is correct.

[1biggun]

this is were I got the notion that a slower twist barrel would work better these guys are shooting 110 grain bullets but have barrels as a slow as 1-18". it only reasons that with a 125 grain bullet like most x39 ammo is that a 1-10 is to fast.

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Im going to try a 1-12 that I have a take off barrel in. Its a Howa 30-06 barrel . the problem is when you start using a barrel of of this and a barrel of of that its hard to really know if its the gun the twist the barrel quality ect thats giving you gains or loses in accuracy. having the right twist in a bad barrel will not do any thing for you. It would be nice to by several blanks from the same source in differant twists and do some testing but Im in no way able to do it at this time.

if your going to hunt with the x39 then you need to maintain a muzzzel velocity that will properly expand the bullet the 150 grains dont expand as well as the 125 gr stuff at the speeds you can get get with that round. Id like to find the sweet for a 125 grain bullet. Im betting its around 1-14 to 1-16

Like bellson said the sweet spot for a 147 grain bullet was the standard 1-10 twist that is close to what a normal ak is. I have noted above that I have had good luck with the 150 grainers out of stock barrels this valaidates a lot of things. Of the cheap stuff the 154 wolf shoots better in my guns than the 123 grain wolf. the problem is the 154 is to slow for my uses in hunting. hit a deer that another guy had crippled several years ago at close to 250 yards with a lucky shot from my pistol with a 154 gr wolf. the bullet was completly intact I likely could have reloaded it back into a case and shot it again. now the 12 barreld pistol does loose a fair amount of velocity over a 20" barrel but this bullet wasent even close to expanding. wrong bullet for the application.

[ERock45]

1 biggun, thank you for all your posts and hard work. I am a former Marine with WPNS 2/1 and hard believer in the AK weapons platform in the original caliber selection in 7.62x39. Thanks again for all the hard work. It is very helpful and informative. Here is a link on a Doe shot at 278 yards with a AR15 in 7.62x39 loaded 125 gr Nosler @ 2400 fps.

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Also, here is some loading data for the 7.62x39 to bring out it's full potential.

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Corbon in 7.62x39 loads a 150gr SP @ 2300 fps and now a 108 gr OTM at 2500 fps.