M16s Nam. Now Iraq. ??

[hcpookie]

Everything I've read about the Vietnam issues weren't due to the weapon itself per se... many if not most of the issues were due to misinterpretations of the "self cleaning gas system" evolving into "gun that never needs cleaning".

I also read that a huge issue was when *someone* decided a different gun powder was better than what the manufacturer specified, and so the recipe was changed. The result with the aforementioned "never needs cleaning" FUD was a large number of fouling-related issues and jams.

Put that smack in the middle of the "bigger is better" mindset at the time which built strong resistance to such a profound change and you'll understand why the issues arose.



Now, what I would like to know is how many of those reports from Somalia are true:

- takes multiple hits to knock down the "skinnies"
- doesn't effectively penetrate the mud huts
... etc.


And what of the Iraq stories we've all probably heard about soldiers having jams during combat - are they all due to poor cleaning habits? Really? Remember that's what allegedly caused that one female soldier (forget her name now) that was all over the news to get captured... gun was jammed and she couldn't fight.

[Rikoshay]

My M4 hasn't jammed. As long as the inside stays clean and dry, no problems so far. We that are infantry take care of our weapons a lot better than other MOS's.

Some of the Iraqi's are using M16's now. We pulled out of Baghdad a few days ago and saw a pickup truck stuffed with IA's (Iraqi Army) and they all had M16's.

It's not really sandy where I'm at, it's more like clay. You find a lot of sand further south down around Bucca and the Kuwait border. After every convoy we have to wipe down the dust, but that's about it. It does get very dusty, just like Ft. Hood or any other post where you're moving a lot of vehicles on gravel roads. Not much differant.

We got ambushed a week ago on our way back from Bucca (heading north) by about 12 guys with AK's and an RPG. Our M2's quickly took care of that. The idiots set up their ambush on the inside of the curve, and we had 4 gun trucks with 50's instantly fire back. It was over in a matter of seconds. We didn't stop, just kept on rolling. Nobody hurt on our side.

[4thIDvet]

Damn good to hear from you. Keep your head down and go full auto. LOL.
Really. Good to hear you are doing O.K.
Please stay in touch and tell the guys over there. "We support our troops."
What do you guys need you can't get over there. P.M me you address and I will ship. What ever the hell ya need it's on the way.
Wow. Have not heard from you in so long I was just trying to remember your name the other day.
Stay in touch please. 4th.

[4thIDvet]

My sargent shot a deer one time. One of those small Asian deer. Hit it square in the chest from about 40 yds. M-16 .223. Wham. I saw the hit.
Damn thing could not have weighed 60 pounds. Down. Wrong.
Deer stood up. Looked at us and said "That all you got." WTF. Holy S#@$T.
And I'm supposed to shoot people with this.
We never did find the deer. It headed for the hills.

Word I got from the Somalia vets is the Somalia troops were whacked out on some kind of stimulant that a .44 mag could not stop them.

Is the .223 working?? Best let the younger vets tell us I guess. Maybe they have a better bullet now. I don't know.

[bellson]

Hi 4Th,

I'm an "in the middle" Vet. Served from 1981 until 1991.

I was a Ranger 1st, then Air Force....Long story.

I went to Grenada, and I fired 12 shots total.

While in the Air Force, I went EVERYWHERE! I saw more shit than most Vietnam Vets, well, I guess that is subjective....

Seriously, In the Philippine Islands, I had no issues with my issue XM-177; that is the 11.5" version of the Colt Commando with the long flash suppressor and the collapsible stock. And that weapon got some real use.

Went to Saudi Arabia for G-1, saw no use at all, but fired often; I am proud to say that I expended many thousands of U.S. taxpayer dollars on ammo. Same weapon, since all of my deployments were TDY. Had some serious issues with short stroking. Learned quick to ditch the LSA and use graphite. I got really fast at breaking the weapon open and doing a quick brush, wipe and douse with dry lube. The dust gets into EVERYTHING!

Bottom line on the M-16 system:

1. Accurate as any issue MBR, and in most cases, more accurate than the soldier who operates it.
2. The Gas system just sucks. Very difficult to clean, and grows funky dirt everywhere. Also causes the bolt-carrier group to heat up very fast and very hot. Steel does not expand too much, but aluminum does.
3. The original M193 55gr. ammo works very well for anti-personnel. It tends to tumble when it hits a target, especially "fleshy tissue". SS109 is great for distance, and it penetrates well. For CQB it is just not as effective. Try this; shoot a watermelon at 100 meters, it will explode as only a melon can. Now do it again at 5 meters. Clean hole. This is a Jihadist at 100 meters, DOWN. This is a Jihadist at 5 meters, who just shot you back. The M-16 needs a bigger, heavier bullet. IMHO, something around 6.6mm and 105 grains. Same case size, same powder load.
4. Take a look at the Enfield L1A1; It has "sand cuts" on the sides of the bolt carrier to ensure that sand, dust and grit have somewhere to go. That rifle works well in these conditions. The Israelis didn't introduce this feature until after the war in 1967. If the M-16 bolt had "sand cuts" or some other similar feature, it would not have as many issues. Better yet, redesign the upper to be like the AR-180.....End of story.
5. If the diameter of the gas tube was increased to 5.56mm and a jag was issued to allow a soldier the ability to dunk the muzzle end o
f the barrel into a canteen cup and run the a jag up and down through the gas tube, there would be far fewer gas related issues. Better yet, change over to a captive piston design and eliminate all of the gas, heat, and fouling issues all at once.
6. I think a 17 inch barrel is the right length. I have no imperical data to support this. But I can hit targets at 500 meters, and knock holes through cinder blocks as well at that distance.

I like the M-16 system but it needs an overhaul.

Best wishes to all,

Bellson

[hcpookie]

Interesting and timely...

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[4thIDvet]

Great info and feedback on the weapon. Thank you guys. Damn. I keep putting posts up and forgetting where the hell I put them. But info provided was and is very very interesting.

[j427x]

i have all ways thought the m-16 series needs an overhaul as well.

the dust and sand problem, the burned powder in the breech , the some-what underpowered round. although i have killed a few deer with it under 200m i find it don't have enough beans for a combat round at extended range. sure you can get hits with it at 500-600+meters but it takes a bit to long for the bad guys to stop shooting. the mags are another problem--even the best are fragile. the best 5.56 rounds the mk-262 helps some but it wears out the action and barrel pretty quick when the heat is on. the 6.5 grendel and 6.8spc are a partial answer.-better round but punishing when loaded fully and the heater is on high. you still have the flimsey mags and gas venting into the breech.- 7.62x39AR would be the same.

maybe a longer round than the 6.5 grendel or 6.8spc say around 45-48mm in 6.5 for long range punch at around 2800fps or so at the muzzle --remember this round also has to work in a LMG--give supersonic speed all the way out to 1000m with a 109-to 130g bullet. a short rod piston system like a FN_FAL or a long rod system like an AK would do wonders. 18 or 16inch barrels for the standard rifle. the PRM-would carry a longer version with better optics about 20inch on the barrel. it wouldn't hurt to have a fixed extractor too.

so what were talking about new weapon system--ammo--mags rifles and LMG's to extend range and firepower while taking a minimal hit in weight and numbers of rounds.

a new ballgame.

[FloridaAKM]

And we cut up all the M-14's because??????????? They were too heavy to carry?

[j427x]

Originally Posted by FloridaAKM

And we cut up all the M-14's because??????????? They were too heavy to carry?

they were cut so they wouldn't hit the mil-surp market in the US if i'm not mistaken.