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8mm AK... how hard could it be??

8K views 55 replies 11 participants last post by  1biggun 
#1 ·
I've converted an 8mm bolt action to a .308 simply by changing out the barrel. The rounds fed fine from the magazine, bolt face matched... no changes anywhere else.

Maybe it's apples and oranges. But it makes sense to me that I could concievable buy me a .308 Saiga, turn a 8mm barrel for it from a blank (wich are fairly common and cheap, I might add)... and that's that. Bolt and everything should work fine, no? Probably need a bigger mag well... mag issues?? An 8mm round is too long to stuff into any .308 mag I suppose?? Is the Yugo 8mm AK the only weapon with a mag that would work for this?? Just curious as to other ppl's thoughts about this as a possible conversion. There's gotta be an alternative to dishing out 1K for a bag'o parts to build into an 8mm AK. Anyone? Thoughts? Opinions?
 
#2 ·
NATO=7.62x51
8MM= 7,92x57
It won't fit. neat idea, though.
 
#4 ·
....seems to me the only hangup would be the mag. And if the cost of the Saiga's stay down... hmmm.

Wouldn't a Romak PSL mag work? Too much curve maybe. Still $30 some odd bucks a pop.. but at least they're available and built to work in an AK. Hmmm... feed lips probably wouldn't sync...
 
#6 ·
Zane Zackerly said:
Wouldn't the closest thing to an 8mm AK be a Yugo M76?
Yes. Yes it would. A Yugo M76 also cost's a helluva lot of money. Not to mention mag availablility. Read the second to last/last line in my first post.

(There's gotta be an alternative to dishing out 1K for a bag'o parts to build into an 8mm AK. Anyone?)

Saiga .308 = $3-350
8mm barrel = $60-100 etc
...so that's about $450 compared to $999 for a kit not to mention reciever.
Mags?

Just entertaining the thought.
 
#7 ·
SA58 said:
....seems to me the only hangup would be the mag. And if the cost of the Saiga's stay down... hmmm.

Wouldn't a Romak PSL mag work? Too much curve maybe. Still $30 some odd bucks a pop.. but at least they're available and built to work in an AK. Hmmm... feed lips probably wouldn't sync...
Romak PSL.....7.62x54......8mm ....7,92x57....same thing again. But closer. It might fit if there is enough slop.
However......MG13 mags....from ima-usa.com.....an 8mm mag. 30 rounds too! Prolly gonna require some heavy mods,but....Wait a minute......wasn't the BAR built for the belgians in 8mm too? I'm sure it was. Wonder if the mags are the same?
 
#8 ·
Okay, MG13 mags will probably work. If you get the mag to fit, is the bolt going to be long enough to extend past the mag to engage the hammer? The Saiga .308 bolt isn't too much longer than the 7.62 bolt.


.
 
#9 ·
cammobunker said:
Romak PSL.....7.62x54......8mm ....7,92x57....same thing again. But closer. It might fit if there is enough slop.
However......MG13 mags....from ima-usa.com.....an 8mm mag. 30 rounds too! Prolly gonna require some heavy mods,but....Wait a minute......wasn't the BAR built for the belgians in 8mm too? I'm sure it was. Wonder if the mags are the same?
(see, I don't have the overall dimensions of the rounds memorized anymore) I haven't got a PSL (yet) so I can't try to stuff an 8mm round into one to find out for sure. But with the amount of curve on it I would think the tendency would be to bind with a tight fit.

BAR mags?? Don't know. MG13 mags... now your talking! ...and this is why I put the question to those of you with knowledge of such things... good thinking! If I/we can hit upon a suitable mag then I think we're 90% there. The next hurdle would be where to take up the extra 3mm. What is that in inches... pretty close to 1/8"??

Hmm... lets see..

4 FRENCH 7.5 x 54 mags 25 for $100.... hmm, still too short. Price is right though!

Hotchkiss 13.2mm?? only $20

Madsen 8mm mags.. only $10 a piece! Definately needing mods.

MG-13 mags $15.. right on.
 
#10 ·
Uh, 13 mm is like .52 cal. that's prolly not gonna work :rofl:
 
#11 ·
I have been looking to do a 8mm. Barrel s are real cheap I picked up 4 mauser barrels for $15.00 for all 4 off ebay. I was thinking the steel g3 mags at $2.00 a piece could be band sawed length wise and welded bak together fairly easy, 2 mags to make one, would have to mod the follwers also. they are straight and have a nice flat area to work with. I looked for some m76 mags a while back and was not suscessful. how ever I was told that there was possabley going to be some imported and to call back in June. Saiga is susposed to be exporting a 30-06 according to what I read 2 months ago. If it is avaliable I doubt I would bother to do a conversion to 8mm. you almost need to reload to get the full benifet of the 8mm factory ammo is on the weak side due to all the old 1899 stuff still out there. I thnk the CUP pressures are about the same as 7.62x 39
I was thinking a 8mm long barrel pistol for hunting. but if I get the 308 conversion working there is a ton other rounds based on the 308 caseing
22-308, 243, 7mm-08 ( a very nice round only 100fps slower than 7 mag) 358-08 1.5"-308 and a bunch of wild cat stuff as well. that would all work with the g3 or m14 mags.
 
#13 ·
Saiga may well be bringing in some .30/06 semi auto's. That would work.

My gut tells me to tell you to go out and buy a Hakim if you want a relatively inexpensive 8mm semi auto, but then I'd be raining on the parade. :biggrin:
 
#14 ·
cammobunker said:
Uh, 13 mm is like .52 cal. that's prolly not gonna work :rofl:
hehe, woops. (never say die, dammit! .50 cal AK is next on the list!)

Hakim.... I've already got a Hakim. I like it, don't get me wrong. It's just... well... no pistol grip. Mags are $$. Boat oar.. more of a novelty.

I forgot about the 30.06 Saiga's... that'd be a better platform to work off of. All you'd have to do is rebarrel and work the mag out. (the 30.06 mag might actually work as is)
 
#15 ·
SangRun Hunter said:
A lot of what is being discussed here can be found in the .308 conversion forum.

I'm going to move this post there and may rename the forum a little to include larger calibers.
I've been following that thread as well. It just occurred to me that an 8mm conversion may be easier to accomplish... although perhaps not from scratch using Yugo AK parts.

Thing is I REALLY wanted one of those Yugo 8mm kits. But for that kind of money??? No way. I could buy a DSArms FAL for what that would cost me.
 
#17 ·
Ohio rapid fire makes a 8mm reciver. I did not see any mags on there site though
http://www.ohiorapidfire.com . as far as a .50 cal AK not in BMG but in a .50 pistol or rifle it may be possable. I would like to have a .410 and 20 guage trunion to mess with .410 brass measures .535 at the rim. this tells me that a rimless .50 case could be done. ( ever since I found this web site I spend hours in a poorly lit room with a pile of kits a box full of empty misc brass that I stole from my 6 year old and a Mic, calipers and a tape measure and this damm computer) I thought about a .50 AK just to say I did it. Proably want to start with light loads.
 
#18 ·
1biggun said:
as far as a .50 cal AK not in BMG but in a .50 pistol or rifle it may be possable. I would like to have a .410 and 20 guage trunion to mess with .410 brass measures .535 at the rim. this tells me that a rimless .50 case could be done. ( ever since I found this web site I spend hours in a poorly lit room with a pile of kits a box full of empty misc brass that I stole from my 6 year old and a Mic, calipers and a tape measure and this damm computer) I thought about a .50 AK just to say I did it. Proably want to start with light loads.
Meeper has done a .50 Beowulf conversion for the AK.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=892438#post892438

It's not a quick-change barrel like his FAL conversions, but shows .50 is perfectly feasible.


.
 
#19 ·
AH! I thought I'd never find that Beowulf conversion pic. Thanks for finding that! THat was a SAR they just converted, and seeing as how the .50 Beowulf uses a 5.56x45 "necked-up" round, that would be a real easy conversion - new barrel, fit the magazine lips and probably nothing else. May be easier than most other conversions!
 
#20 ·
SA58 said:
I've converted an 8mm bolt action to a .308 simply by changing out the barrel. The rounds fed fine from the magazine, bolt face matched... no changes anywhere else.

Maybe it's apples and oranges. But it makes sense to me that I could concievable buy me a .308 Saiga, turn a 8mm barrel for it from a blank (wich are fairly common and cheap, I might add)... and that's that. Bolt and everything should work fine, no? Probably need a bigger mag well... mag issues?? An 8mm round is too long to stuff into any .308 mag I suppose?? Is the Yugo 8mm AK the only weapon with a mag that would work for this?? Just curious as to other ppl's thoughts about this as a possible conversion. There's gotta be an alternative to dishing out 1K for a bag'o parts to build into an 8mm AK. Anyone? Thoughts? Opinions?
Here are my thoughts (for free)...

I agree with the other posts that the use of the .308 Saiga would require some fitting since the bullet is longer. IT would be more accurate to compare this to a 7.62x54R - the Dragunov and PKM round - instead of a .308 round.

Let's assume you're going the full route, with a pistol grip conversion to restore the Saiga to its intended form. Let's also assume you're going to do "whatever it takes" to make it work.

Magazine fit.
I am not sure that it would be a good idea to "create" the extra clearance by grinding down the trunion. Therefore, I would consider moving the trigger guard back. Obviously, judicious dremel work on the magazine well area would be necessary for whatever magazine fit you require.

You would most likely need to enlarge the magazine well front-to-back and maybe relocate the trigger guard back. I would weld up the existing holes, then redrill brand new trigger guard holes. If the distance is enough, you could relocate it by removing it, using the two existing rear rivet holes for the front of the trigger guard, and drill two more rivet holes for the rear holes.

That would give you a bit less room in front of the trigger, but not my much. If you had to move it no more than about 1/8 - 3/16" then I doubt you would even notice the difference unless you wore gloves or had real fat fingers!

Bolt & Trunion.
The .308 is over-engineered for the larger round. Of course, so is the AK for the 7.62x39 round. I would have to dig out my ROMAK-3 parts to look more closely, but looking through the plastic, the bolt looks just like a 7.62x39 bolt with an RPK/Yugo style trunion.

Assuming that's true, two conclusions can be drawn - you should have enough meat to accomodate the 8mm round if you convert, and OTOH a $100 Yugo kit could be employed without needing to retrofit a more expensive gun. Point being, that maybe a parts kit conversion would be better?

Ejector.
The same would be true for the ejector. You'd *probably* be OK using a default .308 ejector, but if not you could relocate the Saiga ejector back by grinding the front. You may consider even putting a weld bead on the back just to give it some more meat.

Gas port.
A bigger hole would mean more gas bleed, meaning more kick and a more energetic (read: violent) cycle. The higher-power round may need a smaller gas port to keep the action from cycling so harshly. I'd consider a recoil buffer as well.

Ammo.
8mm ammo is like any other full-power round. You have your ammo and then you have your HOT ammo. HOT ammo as in on the right side of the reloading charts. HOT ammo that is good for a thick machine gun or bolt-action weapon. I'm sure we probably have all read about old chambers failing due to crappy ammo of different calibers. I can think of threads I've read about 7.62x25, .308, .303, and 7.62x54R issues. I'd be real hesitant to shoot just any old ammo through it, since you could have some safety issues there. Reloads would give good control of course, but if you find a good ammo selection I'd buy a bunch and stick to it.

I could almost guarantee that all 8mm ammo is corrosive... dunno about that, but something to consider. A nice SS piston from hotbarrel would be a must-have part IMO.


US parts - the parts count is obviously an issue, and that would be easier with a parts kit conversion, since the Saiga would need a piston (1), FCG (2,3,4), pistol grip (5), and then the 6th part from wherever - muzzle brake? US buttstock? Floorplate?


Other than those issues, I'm at a loss as to what else I would consider for the conversion. Could it be done? Sure - if not then the Yugo M76 would have never been built! :D
 
#21 ·
1biggun said:
(ever since I found this web site I spend hours in a poorly lit room with a pile of kits a box full of empty misc brass that I stole from my 6 year old and a Mic, calipers and a tape measure and this damm computer)
:funny_pos :rofl:
 
#22 ·
Yeah I have to agree with the magazines - those Madsen mags are the way to go. It looks like you'll have to braze or weld some lugs onto the magazine anyway, so why not do it with the cheap ones - $5 apiece from ima-usa.com looks like a winner to me!
 
#23 ·
Rhino_66 that was the .50 cal round I was thinking of on meppers gun thanks for finding that site. http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/857mmmau.php is a good site for 8mm loads some are pretty light. I want to do the 8mm in a pistol for hunting with a real heavy bullet. I want good knock down power out to 200 yards a 200 grain would be good. I have a friend who has a modern 8mm mauser comercial built and and his safe hot loads do very well against my30-06 I like the madsen mag Idea I am going to order one on monday. wonder how wide they are. the price is right. going to look for material for my milled Yugo kit monday for the 308 conversion
 
#24 ·
#25 ·
cammobunker said:
HA! While looking for something else entirely......7X57 BAR mags....$5.00 a pop!
Go here look for MAGAZINE, BAR MODEL D 7mm
http://www.ssporters.com/MiscParts.htm

Cool! Man I can't wait to go to Knob creek again this spring. There are so many tables full of bins with all kind of gun parts from the past 100 years. I got so many ideas and things I am looking for now.
 
#26 ·
hcpookie said:
Here are my thoughts (for free)...

I agree with the other posts that the use of the .308 Saiga would require some fitting since the bullet is longer. IT would be more accurate to compare this to a 7.62x54R - the Dragunov and PKM round - instead of a .308 round.

Let's assume you're going the full route, with a pistol grip conversion to restore the Saiga to its intended form. Let's also assume you're going to do "whatever it takes" to make it work.

Magazine fit.
I am not sure that it would be a good idea to "create" the extra clearance by grinding down the trunion. Therefore, I would consider moving the trigger guard back. Obviously, judicious dremel work on the magazine well area would be necessary for whatever magazine fit you require.

You would most likely need to enlarge the magazine well front-to-back and maybe relocate the trigger guard back. I would weld up the existing holes, then redrill brand new trigger guard holes. If the distance is enough, you could relocate it by removing it, using the two existing rear rivet holes for the front of the trigger guard, and drill two more rivet holes for the rear holes.

That would give you a bit less room in front of the trigger, but not my much. If you had to move it no more than about 1/8 - 3/16" then I doubt you would even notice the difference unless you wore gloves or had real fat fingers!

Bolt & Trunion.
The .308 is over-engineered for the larger round. Of course, so is the AK for the 7.62x39 round. I would have to dig out my ROMAK-3 parts to look more closely, but looking through the plastic, the bolt looks just like a 7.62x39 bolt with an RPK/Yugo style trunion.

Assuming that's true, two conclusions can be drawn - you should have enough meat to accomodate the 8mm round if you convert, and OTOH a $100 Yugo kit could be employed without needing to retrofit a more expensive gun. Point being, that maybe a parts kit conversion would be better?

Ejector.
The same would be true for the ejector. You'd *probably* be OK using a default .308 ejector, but if not you could relocate the Saiga ejector back by grinding the front. You may consider even putting a weld bead on the back just to give it some more meat.

Gas port.
A bigger hole would mean more gas bleed, meaning more kick and a more energetic (read: violent) cycle. The higher-power round may need a smaller gas port to keep the action from cycling so harshly. I'd consider a recoil buffer as well.

Ammo.
8mm ammo is like any other full-power round. You have your ammo and then you have your HOT ammo. HOT ammo as in on the right side of the reloading charts. HOT ammo that is good for a thick machine gun or bolt-action weapon. I'm sure we probably have all read about old chambers failing due to crappy ammo of different calibers. I can think of threads I've read about 7.62x25, .308, .303, and 7.62x54R issues. I'd be real hesitant to shoot just any old ammo through it, since you could have some safety issues there. Reloads would give good control of course, but if you find a good ammo selection I'd buy a bunch and stick to it.

I could almost guarantee that all 8mm ammo is corrosive... dunno about that, but something to consider. A nice SS piston from hotbarrel would be a must-have part IMO.


US parts - the parts count is obviously an issue, and that would be easier with a parts kit conversion, since the Saiga would need a piston (1), FCG (2,3,4), pistol grip (5), and then the 6th part from wherever - muzzle brake? US buttstock? Floorplate?


Other than those issues, I'm at a loss as to what else I would consider for the conversion. Could it be done? Sure - if not then the Yugo M76 would have never been built! :D
Seems like the biggest problem to me is the bolt and trunnion. I need a meaty enough bolt for the round, that's long enough for the round and a trunnion to match the bolt. The rest is do-able. Blank for a reciever. Mags can be modified/welded/whatever to work. But the bolt is the part that has me scratching my head... I don't think a 7.62x39 bolt is meaty enough, and I know it's not long enough. To bad a body can't just order spare parts from the zastava factory.
 
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