So not to highjack the 450 Bushmaster thread.
This was one of those "what if" things while waiting for some parts to show up. I was looking for ease of making brass and something that wasn't proprietary to a maker. I wouldn't want to spend 30 minutes per case to have the AK punt it to China or dent the crap out of it. Or send a barrel to someone to cut a chamber for X2-X3 times the cost of what a reamer would be and I could cut it myself. So, a 30.06 case cut below the shoulder, some 44 mag bullets that were on hand, and you get something like this.
The case would have to be fire formed as you can see from the pic that there is a dip below the seated bullet. The lead on top of it was smashed in the loading due to not having a 44mag seating die at the time. The case has not been crimped. On the 44automag they inside neck reamed to a depth of .590 which might be needed to help keep the bullet from moving under recoil...don't know. A Lee factory crimp might keep it in place or might need a canalure in the case....don't know. A RCBS 44mag neck sizer is too big to start in the case, so an expander cone is needed.
To answer some of 1bigguns questions.
The left one is a standard 44mag, the center is the 44???, and of course a 7.62x39. I don't know why in the pic the case looks like it was cut with a hacksaw, it wasn't. The length is 1.700 inch. Don't remember why that length as you can almost get a 2 inch case by cutting a 30.06 at the shoulder. Maybe it was to use a standard die, but the 444 would be the only thing close or maybe it was close in case volume to another conversion cartridge to have a starting point for loading. Before setting a length I would want to get some 180 to 300 grain bullets to see what the OAL would be. It was just one of those lets see thing.
when I get a chance I am going to form some straigtend out 30-06 brass in my 444 marlin dies then cut it down to a length that will fit in a AK mag. I am thinking that with the taper making the OD larger the shorter the case gets ,that a .45 bullet could be used instead of a .44?? if this would work then perhaps 444 marlin dies could at least be used to do the forming. I am also thinking a .41 bullet would work good in cut down 30-06 brass. this would give better bullet weight to case capacity and a shoulder to head space on. there are several wild cats based on necked down 444 marlin brass. The .375 & .411 JDJ and the.375 EXPRESS (WATERS) are all made from necked down 444 Marlin brass. I think cut down 30-06 brass can be formed to make a rimless version of these. A shorter version that would fit a AK/AR mag would be a great round IMOA.
I got a new computer and hope to be able to post pictures soon of some prototypes im working on as well
I don't know if you saw but Tony Rumore (Tromix) had problems with the 10 round .410 mags feeding in his prototype .444 Marlin and is going to try a .375/.444 Marlin. I after trading an email or two with him though I think if the .444 were loaded with longer bullets than what he is using there wouldn't be a problem. That being said....the 4 round mags feed perfect. I know the .375/.444 is supposed to be more comfortable to shoot, but I still MUCH rather have a .444 than a .375/.444 so I am still pushing on that route.
The proplem is no one makes a longer/pointed bullet except the $40 a box hornady leverevultion stuff. Not trying to question tony Rumore skills but why would the bullet design affect feeding between a 10 round and a 4 round Mag?? I would suspect the 10 rounder has more upward spring pressure on the carrier and is causing excessive drag,
or is pushing the bullet up a a differant angle. the sagia conversions use a barrel shroud as well to help guide the round if this dont work making a no shrouded version is going to be even tougher. I wonder if the mag being designed for a straight 410 shell instead of a taperd 444 marlin round is not part of the problem also??
Do you have a link to the discussion on tonys gun not feeding??
A 375 woul be a better round in my opinion for hunting any way and better rifle bullets avaliable. I think guys are getting stuck on the mine is better bigger than yours thing. I am starting to wish I had not bought a 44 blank but got a .375 instead
Yeah...I asked him to try some of the Hornady bullets and he said he did, but only in the 4 round magazines and they fed fine. He also said he loaded up some 300 gr bullets that were pretty long and they fed fine out of the 10 round mag. I'm not stuck on a bigger round....jI ust prefer one that I don't HAVE TO reload for.
Here are the links:
Tromix 444 Marlin Project Has Been Scrapped. - forum.Saiga-12.com
.375 versus .444 Marlin (pic) - forum.Saiga-12.com
That's pretty interesting! I am curious about this but like I said before I'm not convinced the .44 is the best platform, because of the singular fact that bullet selection and barrel selection is rather limited.
I wonder if a custom cast bullet mold could be made to make a bullet that was longer and more pointed. not sure the tip would hold up in feeding I cant get those links to open up for reason
got the link to open.It seems like the issue is that the sagia mags are not compatable with the 444 marlin. I hopefully will be able to overcome these proplems with a custom mag in my rimless version. I am really starting to wish I had started with a .375 first. the 444 marlin is shorter than a 308 so maybe it is doable. I want at least a 5rounder for hunting as this is the whole point of the build for me. I do admire the fact that Tony will not sell a gun unless it is 100% reliable. since it isnt with a Sagia mag he wont sell it. I have no doubt that a custom mag could be made to make the sagia conversion to work on a custom build. Gunter I still like the Idea of a AK Mag length .44 0r .45 or .458 round sorry to high jack this thread. maybe it can be moved to my 444 marlin thread????
Your not highjacking....just more to think about. Good info all.
The 44 bullet was just what I had on hand. I don't know how much the taper would be with a 45 bullet. I don't have access to the thickness of the case right now, but when back I'll check and see what the taper would be. There are longer more pointed lead bullets up to 500 grains if I remember right. There are some 300 grain jacketed that are pretty pointed. I'll need to probably get a 223 mag and figure out a crimp die to see if it would work.
Actually not true. The mag will feed up to 4. The magazine is built for a rimmed round - .410 - and not the "rimless" .444. Also, the builder didn't want to muck with magazines, so it would be more proper to say the .410 "no magazine" conversion doesn't feed as many as he wants. Not a nitpick, just trying to make a point. I suspect if you wanted to build a new follower you could get it to work. If the .444 rounds don't truly "single stack", then doing a conversion will involve a new mag.
Originally Posted by 1biggun
Now to apply this to a .44 "SUPER LONG" build... the magazine would need to actually single-stack it because if not, the spring force will be consumed trying to push the rounds into the side, and not into the feed lips. A true double-stack would probably work just like VZ's .45 Win Mag if you don't mind the extra work.