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44????

35K views 236 replies 12 participants last post by  1biggun 
#1 · (Edited)
So not to highjack the 450 Bushmaster thread.

This was one of those "what if" things while waiting for some parts to show up. I was looking for ease of making brass and something that wasn't proprietary to a maker. I wouldn't want to spend 30 minutes per case to have the AK punt it to China or dent the crap out of it. Or send a barrel to someone to cut a chamber for X2-X3 times the cost of what a reamer would be and I could cut it myself. So, a 30.06 case cut below the shoulder, some 44 mag bullets that were on hand, and you get something like this.
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The case would have to be fire formed as you can see from the pic that there is a dip below the seated bullet. The lead on top of it was smashed in the loading due to not having a 44mag seating die at the time. The case has not been crimped. On the 44automag they inside neck reamed to a depth of .590 which might be needed to help keep the bullet from moving under recoil...don't know. A Lee factory crimp might keep it in place or might need a canalure in the case....don't know. A RCBS 44mag neck sizer is too big to start in the case, so an expander cone is needed.

To answer some of 1bigguns questions.

The left one is a standard 44mag, the center is the 44???, and of course a 7.62x39. I don't know why in the pic the case looks like it was cut with a hacksaw, it wasn't. The length is 1.700 inch. Don't remember why that length as you can almost get a 2 inch case by cutting a 30.06 at the shoulder. Maybe it was to use a standard die, but the 444 would be the only thing close or maybe it was close in case volume to another conversion cartridge to have a starting point for loading. Before setting a length I would want to get some 180 to 300 grain bullets to see what the OAL would be. It was just one of those lets see thing.
 
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#132 ·
A .30-06 case will cut nicely to 2 inches. A .308 case will cut to 1.75, or 1.7 if you want to avoid all the shoulder.
the over all length of the case in this project is dictated by length of the mag. in this case a 1.70- 1.840 is all you can use and still have room to properaly seat a bullet.

for a longer 2"+ .44 build see my 444 marlin rimless project based on a cut down 30-06 case(on hold due to the work being done on this build).
 
#133 ·
Okay, did some measuring with the 300gr Speers and 1.7, 1.8, or 1.84 would work and still be within the 2.200 OAL spec. I think that any one of the three should cover most of the 44 magnum pistol bullets out there. The Leverlution bullet (if they are ever released for reloading) probably would not stay within the 2.2 spec with any of the case lengths.

So which one is it going to be? 1.7, 1.8, or 1.84????
 
#134 ·
well I was considering buying a box of the leverlution ammo. or possably just take the calipers to the store and ask if it was ok to measure because ammo is not returnable and I want to make sure it will fit my Mag.( a half lie) I suspect that they will get released and the hornady web site says eventualy they will. I am also looking into swedging some 458 bullets down if possable. custom made bullets are not completly out of the picture also.
the biggest bitch I have heard about the 450 bushmaster is it uses a pistol bullet instead of a true .458 rifle bullet. it would be nice if the 444???? Super Gunco Express Special Racnor Thunder Magnum Mach 11 didnt have that problem. LOL

I want the most powder capacity we can get and a secondary reason is ever notice how much rounds rattel in the mag from the extra space. really pisses me off when trying to sneak around with my hunting pistol. Ill post a thread in the general fire arms discussion are to see if any members have any of the leverlution ammo.
 
#135 ·
you know it occured to me that a .458 dia reammer would allow you to extend the neck area of the chamber later on.for example chamber it at 1.8 (45.73mm) and if the bullets are to long down the road simply extend the neck part of the chamber and adjust the throat with the reammer we will already have. the neck is straight as far back as the bullet is seated so extending that area out will not affect the original chamber. head spacing of the old ammo would no longer be any good.

Im thinking that a combination of a .431 throater a .458 necking reamer and the remander of the chamber bored at the correct taper on a lathe could make this chamber with out a special chambr reamer. the taperd portion is only aprox 1.30 long and has aprox .010 of taper in that distance. it could almost be done with a sanding roll and a die grinder. (I know it would not be match grade but it could be done) the 458 neck reamer would make a good rougher also. I could also use all the two straight reamers on my 444 rimless marlin project down the road as well as any other varaiton.

I see it going like this 1. ream a pre set distance with a straight 458 reamer (wonder what a 44 mag reamer measures at) this will give the finished neck area.

2. ream the throat this will give the finished throat and also the ledge for the head space.

3. then bore in the correct distance with a boring bar set at the correct angle on the tool post the aproxment 1.30 this will give the correct taper and finish the chamber.

one could likely have the taperd boreing go clear to the mouth but the brass in reality will only be taperd to were the bullet is seated. you would still be only streaching the brass aprox .005 (less than a 7.62x39 neck in a military chamber)

Or pony up $150 and buy a chamber that does it all and be done with it in one step (can always extend the throat later) a throater is $50
 
#136 · (Edited)
Looking on the net there are some reviews on the 30-30 that breaks it down. The cannelure is way up on the bullet and it appears that they keep it to the standard length of the 30-30 round. If they did this with the 44 magnum then it should still be the OAL of a standard 44 mag round. So, they might work with no problems. If someone had some of the 44 or 444 and get the measurements that would help.
 
#137 ·
Im guessing that trimmed 30-06 brass is thicker than 44mag.

heres a good link on reamer stuff

$40 for throating reamers $50 for a necking& throating reamer. the throating necking reamer is interesting because it would be good for a 444 marlin rimless or even a longer round like a full length 30-06 case opend to .44

http://www.mansonreamers.com/January 2008 Catalog.pdf


are the hornady leverlution bullets the same weight for the 44 mag and the 444 marlin???

ALSO WAS THINKING THE THROATING REAMER COULD BE USED FOR COUNTER BOARING THE MUZZEL FOR A MAGNAPORT TYPE DEAL OR FOR REAMING A SCREW ON BRAKE
 
#139 ·
44magnum Lever Evolution is a 225gr and the 444 is a 265gr IIRC.

The 44automag was inside reamed to keep the bullet from moving back during recoil and feeding.

I posted over at the other forum asking questions on Ken Howell's 444 rimless. Was it inside reamed, tried in an auto-loader, etc., with no responses. From his threads it appears that he is just using standard 444 Marlin dies with no inside reaming. Which is less work and I don't want to ream if it is not needed.

I would think that first we need to set a spec and method so that anyone can produce the same case. Then load some dummy rounds and test for bullet walk. I would hate to make/have a reamer made and chamber a barrel only to find out that it needs to be inside reamed which would change the OD of the case mouth. Then we would get to start all over again.
 
#140 ·
.44 auto mag cases can be made from 30-06 and 308 cases. A search on how to make the auto mag might help you out as it lounds like you're sorta making a longer 44 auto mag?
they require inside neck reaming, which valadates my thoughts that the brass is much thicker than a normal 44 mag or auto mag case.

I don't want to ream if it is not needed.
agreed Im not sure if there is much military brass out there for sale any more???????
for this project to be viable to shoot cheap (the whole reasson for not building a 450 marlin or a 458 socom) is the avaliabilty of cheap once fired and easily avaliable new brass. I likely will want to nust use new remington or some other cheap comercial brass. the thinner wall will allow for more powder and still be pleanty strong. I see remington and winchester used for sale quite a bit.

there will be no need to inside ream if the reamer made for what ever brass we plan to use. It would be good to know how much thicker other brass is from remington. how ever the looser we make the chamber to allow for thicker necks the worse the accuracy and area that is avaliable to head space off of. dont forget that if you were to find a hughe amount of military brass you could always enlarge the neck or inside turn the brass. other than the neck the rest will still be the same regardless of brand as it will be sized the same from the dies. IT WILL BE EASIER TO ENLARGE A NECK OR THROAT AREA IN A CHAMBER THAN MAKE IT SMALLER LOL

44magnum Lever Evolution is a 225gr and the 444 is a 265gr IIRC.
INTERESTING THE 225 BULLETS IN THE 444???? WILL HAUL ASS!!!. i CAN SEE IT BEING A 200-300 YARD GUN. IMOA. IN A BOLT ACTION WERE WE CAN RUN THE PRESSURES UP TO 308 OR HIGHER PRESSURES THIS ROUND WILL LKELY BE EQUAL TO OR BETTER THAN A COMERCIALY LOADED 444 MARLEN DUE TO THE MARLINS LOWER SAMMI PRESSURES.

WE NEED THESE BULLETS. IT WOULD ALMOST BE WORTH PULLING THEM FOR HUNTING APPLICATIONS. i CAN BELIEVE THAT SOME ONE ELSE HAS NOT STARTED MAKING SOME THING SIMULAR.
 
#141 ·
Played with my box of parts for the 444??? super blaster express. and I tried some loded rounds into a steel ar mag and they fit damm near perfect, the lips on thses mags hold the round nice and level and there steel and cheap. I really wish I had bought a few of those mag addapters. the mags are steel so they can have taps welded on or possably a ar style mag well can be added. A AR in 444??? super death hammer mach 2 would be a really nice build as well. Im thinking it would not take much to build a ar mage well and add it to a ak reciver perminatly I like the way the AR mags go in and out much better than a AK any way. HMMMMMM I post some pics of the rounds in the mag latter.

A US mag would save some $$$$ on compliance parts as well.
 
#142 ·
Im all for 44 mag bore and the use of a o6 case makes lots of sense. I would like to go the 45 long colt route but its just a pet cal of mine. has anyone tryed a 45acp , a 45 thompson barrel would be neat in a ak 45acp its use in the ar platform is being used now 10mm also. I like big bore pistal cals even 50ae well cant wait for a few to get built
 
#143 ·
Pale horse 45 super (45acp but faster) will work in a gas op ak using grease gun mags. So even though the ar series requires more gas to operate, I believe this would not be a problem at all. Also you could go 45 wm, that definately has the gas.

If you would like to see a thompson barrel in an ak look at the 45 wm thread in this section
 
#145 ·
Well the postlady brought me a little package today....it is Load From a Disk. That was some fast shipping. So, with about half-reading the manual and just trying the program out. The 44 super blaster express super death hammer mach 2 ??? should have a empty case of 66.577 grains of water (according to the program...will have to measure with a real case and see). Using the 300gr Speer, 18 inch barrel, the program shows that with several powders it should run around 1900fps with pressure of around 41,000 CUP. If you keep it around 1800fps the pressure is around 36,000 CUP. Of course this is just what the program says and real life might prove different.

I ran the optimum rifling twist rate on that bullet at that velocity and it was 1-40????? My 1-18 might be a little fast.
 
#146 ·
Cool I wanted one those programs myself.

Its funny I was guessing(think I even stated it here) 1900-2100 fps with 50,000psi and 265 gr. what does the program say at the those specs???? MAN ITS GOT TO BE CLOSE!

I have the .44444 EXTREAM SUPER MACHO RAPTOR SLAYER DECIMATER EXPRESS Z28
on hold for a bit need to get the pre obama crap finished. besides its deer season.

I did pick up a spare yugo M-70 trunion for it as well as a NDS-5 RECIVER registerd as a pistol so i guess that is sort of working on it. I need to see what my blank has for a twist rate. I really want some Hornady leverlution bullets for this project. maybe if we contacted them they might be willing to help. some one here or on another gun board must have a contact there. I even considerd having custom bullets made. with a soft point. I want a .430 core-lokt type hunting rifle style bullet. I could buy 44mag rounds and pull the hornady bullets for the few actual hunting shots I shoot a year.
 
#148 ·
I measured a case last night that was expanded at the top only, not full length and it came out at 53.8 grains of water. Maybe if it was fully formed it might get to the 66.5 grains. With this smaller case it should push a 300gr at 1658fps around 37,000 CUP.

I didn't see a 265gr bullet, so I used a 250gr and at 1984fps it was around 42,200 CUP. So that should be close to your figures 1biggun.

As for a .41, staying around 37-38,000 CUP, 16 inch barrel, and using a 200gr bullet, the 401WSL ran 1860fps, the 41-44CL ran 1792fps, and the 41 Jurras ran 1813fps.

Of course all of this doesn't mean squat until one is loaded, fired, and then see how close the data is.
 
#149 ·
So that should be close to your figures 1biggun.
FIGURES?????????
hell I cant figure out how to mix oil to gas on my snow blower. all I did was look at a 444 marlin numbers subtract some speed in my head for smaller case capicty then added some speed for the higer pressure I think we can get away with then subtracted a little bit because nothing in my life goes as fast as it should and that is what I GUESSED. sort of faster than a 454 casull and slower than a 444 marlin.

I keep thinking a .41 with a neck might be a better over all round for head spacing and for velocity. I will get the .444 wonder banger going before next deer season.
 
#150 ·
04-17-2008, 12:58 PM #91 (permalink)
1biggun
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Quote:
Are you going to ream the inside to get more powder capacity?

NO I feel the case should have enough capacity to meet the needs I have in mind for this round and I want all the wall thickness I can get for head spacing of the mouth. the 44??? is over 1/2" longer than a 44 mag with a larger case OD at the base. IT should be plenty. My goal is 1800to1900 FPS this is only a rough guess but is based on what other simular rounds do. I am expecting a case capicty of aproximently 53-55 GR,s. this should make it a very capiable deer hunting round my intended purpose, and knock down what ever doors and walls and water jugs and dirt clods the Rambo guys think they need.



Quote:
Also, I used steel mags and was able to spot weld the locking lugs. Not sure if aluminum brazing would work for the alloy mags. Something to think about.

I have a very nice tig welder so if I want to use aluminumit will be ok. I also have about 10 of the steel mags that tapco had so cheap back when.

As far as the mags go check this out here is the 44???? in a FAL mag. If cut down they would be almost perfict. (see next post for pics)

As far as brass goes here is some that will require no fire forming or expanding. little pricey but If you wanted to skip ma few steps it would be ideal it nalso has more case capicty due to thinner walls. it is 30-06 or whelin basic.

30-06 Cylinder Brass for Wildcat and Custom Ammunition
damm I was close on the case capaity and the FPS I just reread the entire thread. I guessed 53 -55 grs and 1800-1900 fps

you came up with 53.8 or bigger due to not being expanded and 1984FPS at 42,000 CUP.

so in reality if we do gain some case capicty from expaning and bump the pressure up we might see 2100 FPS

42,000 CUP is a nice safe number given the larger rim than a 7.62x39. this should be safe on a rommy trunion and bolt.
 
#151 ·
#153 ·
Hornady has released the LEVERevolution bullets for reloading!!!! I'll pull some anyway to see how they fit in the 44???.
SWEET I LOVE IT WHEN A PLAN COMES TOGETHER. WITH THESE BULLTES THIS ROUND SHOULD DO WELL OUT TO 200 YARDS IM THINKING. THIS MAY GET ME MORE MOTIVATED TO KEEP PUSHING FORWARD ON THIS PROJECT. TO TOP IT OF THERE THE 265 GRINERS THAT i WANTED. THIS MAY ALSO BE THE DECIDING FACTOR IN DOING A 444 MARLIN RIMLESS BUILD AS WELL. AND ALSO MAKES THE HANDIRIFLE MORE ATTRACTIVE. IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT THE OVERALL LENGTH ENDS UP BEING. i WANT IT TO BE JUST UNDER THE MAG LENGTH OF A 223 MAG. ONCE THE WE GET A MAG LENGTH ESTABLISHED THEN ITS REAMER TIME. THIS ROUND WOULD BE GREAT IN A MAUSER RIFLE WELL. IM THINKING A PRE 98 MAUSER SMALL RING WOULD POSSABLY BE SUTIABLE. MONEY, AND FREEZING WEATERR ARE HOLDING ME UP AS WELL AS NEEDING TO GET SOME KITS INTO RIFLE FORM BEFORE LAW CHANGES. .
 
#154 · (Edited)
That was what I was waiting on to see if the 1.800" case length would work with them. Then it will be time to get back to work on this project.

I too was thinking about a small ring Mauser or even an Araiska Type38 action if I can find one. Either one should make a good short range deer rifle.
 
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