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44????

35K views 236 replies 12 participants last post by  1biggun 
#1 · (Edited)
So not to highjack the 450 Bushmaster thread.

This was one of those "what if" things while waiting for some parts to show up. I was looking for ease of making brass and something that wasn't proprietary to a maker. I wouldn't want to spend 30 minutes per case to have the AK punt it to China or dent the crap out of it. Or send a barrel to someone to cut a chamber for X2-X3 times the cost of what a reamer would be and I could cut it myself. So, a 30.06 case cut below the shoulder, some 44 mag bullets that were on hand, and you get something like this.
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The case would have to be fire formed as you can see from the pic that there is a dip below the seated bullet. The lead on top of it was smashed in the loading due to not having a 44mag seating die at the time. The case has not been crimped. On the 44automag they inside neck reamed to a depth of .590 which might be needed to help keep the bullet from moving under recoil...don't know. A Lee factory crimp might keep it in place or might need a canalure in the case....don't know. A RCBS 44mag neck sizer is too big to start in the case, so an expander cone is needed.

To answer some of 1bigguns questions.

The left one is a standard 44mag, the center is the 44???, and of course a 7.62x39. I don't know why in the pic the case looks like it was cut with a hacksaw, it wasn't. The length is 1.700 inch. Don't remember why that length as you can almost get a 2 inch case by cutting a 30.06 at the shoulder. Maybe it was to use a standard die, but the 444 would be the only thing close or maybe it was close in case volume to another conversion cartridge to have a starting point for loading. Before setting a length I would want to get some 180 to 300 grain bullets to see what the OAL would be. It was just one of those lets see thing.
 
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#211 ·
I found a couple quickloads for a similar round, 1.850" case length, 2.350" C.O.A.L. based off of 30-06 brass. The 300gr .44 xtp was going around 2200fps at 60kpsi. IDK if you want to push them that hard in an ak, maybe drop the psi down a bit since the bolt thrust would be more than the x39. The pressure graph on them was in time which makes the pressure spike seem more gentle/vs the more useful barrel length which is good for port placement. Look at other big bores built on the ak action and you should get a good idea on where to place the gas port.
 
#212 ·
I'd want to run the pressure about 48,000 PSI. The speed you quote are about what I figured based on rough guesses. My initial estimates were based on a 240 grain bullet. if I ever buy a reamer for this. This round might be a good candidate for that little Spanish Mauser I have.
 
#213 ·
I have been thinking more an more about this now that the screw in barrel build is getting closer to being ready to build .

I wish I had not turned my barrel stub for a press fit i could have used it on the threaded trunion mole man is doing for me. :(

I could likely just use it on my 6mm BRX variant ( I really need to name that thing ) as is . I wish I had a spare trunion to stick it in .

Has any one heard from or know Gunter ? I havent seen him post in a few years I wonder if he ever got his version running ?
 
#215 ·
yEA HE SORT OF GOT REAL PRIVATE AFTER THE FIRST ELECTION AN GUN LAW SCARE . I KNOW HE WAS PRETTY SERIOUS ON GETTING IT DONE . WE PUT A LOT OF THOUGHT INTO THIS . :(

I KEEP thinking I can cut this chamber with a boring bar . how hard is it to bore in at the correct angle about 1.800 " an then throat it ?

With the ,470 bolt face it need to gewt done so I can use one on the screw in barrel build , the same bot would work for the 6mm BRX varaint .

Im kind of thinking a 22 BR< 6mm BRX an a 44???? or 458 socom barrel set for the same bolt would be cool . then I could use it on pretty much any thing in north america .

might tbe better if it was a 22-250, 243 , 308 an 444 rimless on a three lug Saiga
 
#217 ·
Moleman was mentioned he could likely do a reamer for this . I have been thinking .

it would be nice if a chamber reamer an a sizing die reamer were avaliable then dies could be made for this for others who might want to mess with a cheap to do big bore .

after my 6mm brx variant any wildcat I do again is going to have a reamer made an the round is going to be makeable in 5 steps or less . .

This is going on the way back burner for now but there will be a 44 cal ak of some kind at some point.

a reamer that did everything including the free bore would certainly save a lot of time an money especially if multiple barrels are made .
 
#218 ·
1biggun, I have done sizing die reamers and dies as well. They aren't hard to do, just like a lot of stuff...tedious and time consuming. I'm way behind where I thought I'd be on builds by this time, but If you can get me two reamer blanks turned and polished for the chamber reamer and another two for the sizing die out of O1, I will flute and harden them for you. That would give you a kick in the pants to get this monster finished.

Now for the 6mmbrx. Would a set of bushing dies help form them from 308? I made a set for a 6mm wildcat that had a 223 parent case. It had a shorter case and a different shoulder angle. I ended up making several bushing that formed the shoulder and neck in steps, and then a final one for sizing. The dies aren't hard to make, but do require a lot of time. If you can thread on your lathe you can make them, or you can get a die blank or use good quality all thread.
 
#220 ·
On mY 6mm BRX variant I cut brass in a saw an then use a 308x1.5 barnes trim die held .120 off the shell holder trim to length in a forster trimmer then size down to 7mm BR with a .110 spacer then I size down to a 6mmBR with a .100 spacet ,I then inside ream while in the trim die I then run it into a 6mmbr FL die with a .100" spacer to finish it an retrim length if needed . It a lot of steps .

In a 444 Id like to form die made from a chamber reamer then inside ream while in that die an then FL size in separate die like normal an also use that die for relaoding made brass .

I have a few builds giong an the screw in barrel gun will get done first an then Ill start thinking of big bore.

Honestly since one of the screw barrel guns will be a 308 length mag well I may just go with a rimless 444 an skip the little 444??? for right now .


I have also been thinking instead of a full length 444 marlin rimless why not just make the bass a little shorter an use blow out 308 cases ..It should be a lot easier to aneal an run a manderal in a 308 case vs cutting 30-60 cases down then having to inside ream an then final trim IMO also 308 / 7.62x51 are cheaper an easier to find .

might be able to just fire form 308 cases rigt in a 44-308 chamber ?
 
#221 ·
For the 444-Biggun, I'd just make a couple expanding arbors like I posted in reply #171. You have to anneal the case, but they worked great on 223 to 357 and they should do even better on 30 to 429. If you cut them off at the shoulder you may be able to get away without annealing, although I still would. I didn't have good luck fire forming when I expanded the neck and left the case hour glass shaped. A full power 357 mag load did not expand the hourglass shape from the case. I started with wax, but ened up using real bullets as the wax was messy and wasn't letting the pressure build up enough. It took a 357max load to iron it out. I think it was because the case the pressure drops off so fast in a straight walled case v/s a bottle neck. The two expanders opened up the case enough that I was able to load a hotter 357 max load as a starting load. Then once fire formed, I was able to step up to 357AR pressures. I also found that the shoulder which was now the case mouth was all over the place as far as thickness went. Some were under my target .010" thickness, and some were thick enough to prevent them from chambering. I think the reaming approach will really pay off. I lathe turn mine and that is a PITA. I just may have to make up a case reamer for it.
 
#222 ·
iD LIKE OT KEEP THE ORIGINAL SHOULDER ON A 308 BASED CASE THAT WAY i SHOULD NOT HAVE TO INSIDE REAM . 3O8 IS ABOUT .016 AT THE CASE MUHT SO HEAD SPACING OF IT SHOULD BE DOABLE . yOU HAVE A LITTLE OWRE TO WORK WIH ON 308 VS 223 . iD TRY TO RUN ABOUT .003 NECK CLEARANCE .

A EXPANDING MANDERAL WOULD WORK AN HTE CASE NEEDS TO BE STRAIGHTENED OUT AS FAR DOWN AS POSSABLE ANY WAY SO IT DOSENT HAVE A HOUR GLASS LOOK TO IT .

iM NOT WORRIED ABOUT HE HOUR GLASS AS IT WILL BLOW OUT ON FIRING A LIVE ROUND BUT IT WULD BE NICE TO BE ABLE TO GET I CLOSE INITALY .

SIINCE IM DOING A 308 LENGHT MAG WELL ON ONE OF THE SCREW BARREL GUNS i MIGHT AS WELL GO BIG ON ROUND . A 444???? LIKLEY COULD STILL BE DONE WITH THE SAME REAMER THERE IS VERY LITTLE TAPER HERE . A SHORT VERSION MIGHT NEED TO HAVE A SMALLER BASE DIE MAYBE .

A 444 MARLIN DIE MIGHT WORK ON A 308 CASE VERSION AS IS. I NEED TO GO BACK NA LOOK AT HE SPECS ITS BEEN A FEW YEARS .

IF I DONT HAVE TO CUT BRASS AN REAM THIS PROJECT IS MORE LIKLEY TO HAPPEN . IT WOULD BE NICE TO MANDERAL EXPAND, FL SIZE AN THEN TRIM AN LOAD .
 
#224 ·
So it has a .005" thick neck ? Thats notg oing to work out well. the case head is .440 if he blows it straight an sets in a.430 bullet he has a neck of .005" or the round gets bigger in the front ?

is he using a bullet with a smaller base were it seats like a 22 lr or a old black powder round ? I have considered that but why ?

A zero taper case is not going to feed an extract very well IMO . Hell Im worried about the lack of case taper on this . an it has a .470 case head.

then you got the issue of the case capacity being to small for good performance even if you could make the round . the x39 is about 1.52" long the 444 is about 1.80 or so depending on the bullet you select an how you wish to seat it . the case is going to have about 10 grains or more capacity at least .

the round round would maybe be workable with a 40 or 41 cal bullet . I dont see it working out well with a .430 ( 44) bullet . is there any links or proof of this creation working ?
 
#225 ·
is there any links or proof of this creation working ?
I think it's a "concept." I was just glad the Voices weren't babbling at me for a change...

Looks like .012-.015 is common for case neck thickness. Yes, that would be a peculiar looking cartridge when loaded... I'll let him know next time I talk to him.

I'm still thinking a .44 AMP die set and reamer with .308 brass is the way to go. The AMP brass is inside-reamed to get the bullet to seat, since the brass gets thick midway down on a .308. Depending on where you cut it off, you might be able to skip the reaming step; just shorten the brass and go for it. Which is good, since the RCBS forming/reaming set is rather expensive. You can still pick up Hornady .44AMP reloading die sets for $60 or so.
 
#226 ·
Id have no issue making brass with 44 marlin dies an few other things . yes the neck would be thick . Im not sure it would be a issue how ever an a thing neck would help for head spacing off .

you sure the hell are not going to want to head space on a .005 think neck whne you need a rpound .003 or more clerance .

the 44 AMP might be a option Id have to look at it .

unless a you use a bullet with a smaller base than the bullet like on a old BP load or a 22 lr I dont see a x39 case working .

now a 41 cal bullet might work out an be really doable . might even make a really cool revolver round
 
#227 ·
I have been looking more at getting this back off the ground . :) I plan on keeping the thick brass at the case mouth for a better head space stop . I am also thinking of reducing the case length to 1.80 vs 1.830 to give a little more room for pointed bullets or long heavy cast bullets .

I want this to be a not ream or neck turn deal were all you do is cut an trim to size case expand an load . im using remington brass an I need to make sure other brands of brass will still fit the chamber. so I need to get a hold of some varius 30-06 or simualr rounds cut them doan an see how they are at the 1.80 mark .

If any one has any un needed various brand 30-06 brass Id be happy to put it to good use moving this project forward . Im particularity interested in a few military cases to cut an measure .

I could just make the chamber perfect for Rem brass an just stick with it . its avaliable new an used . It would be ice I I could use any 30-06, 270. 8mm type case an not be to tight .

it still going to be a while . :( Its looking like ll be getting some help for a meamber here but Id like ot finish the last thing he helped me on . LOL the screw in a barrel build will get a 444??? barrel at some point .

If any one has any 44 cal Hornady 365 grain leverlution bullets I could really use a couple to finalize over all case length an loaded length. or if they can give me a meaurement from the canalure groove tot he tip ( if even has a groove ) .
MY goal is to have this round fit a 223 ak an ar mag perfecty an give maximum capacity it can wiht the longest bullets reasonable to use .
 
#229 ·
I have seen that thread . several guys including Ken howell who makes conversion cylinders for cap an ball revolvers has made versions of a 444 rimless or a 444-306 .

Ill get it done some day. Im not in a hurry I have lots of other projects first . the barrel is still sitting here ani sort of recall how I made this live round that in the box with it .

I have considered a wrist brace equipped pistol in a big bore more an more for hunting :)

I keep thinking about a 45-70 rimless on blown straight 284 win brass also . I have no real need to keep the case short the AK is not mag well restricted like a AR
 
#233 ·
It's rimless and meets MI DNR max case length for a straight walled pistol cartridge in a rifle, and I already own 44 pistols and a 444 rifle so I already have componets are it's main advantages. Here's a few QL work ups at varying PSI. I based the QL guestimate off of the 44 automag with a lengthened case and increased case capacity.I likely will stick under 45kpsi in my first build which will be on a 1891 mauser action.
 

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#234 ·
How's this compare to the 460S&W?
If you want a rimless 460 look at the 45 Raptor made on special starline brass at a buck a case . it uses 460 dies an some load data .

the 444-1bG uses cut 30-06 cases or similar for about 25 cents an runs a little bit lighter bullet faster . this will mean less drop at the ranges its good for . any thing that gets hit with a 265 grain bullet at the speeds this will run is going to have a bad day . It will have a bit less recoil

the 444-1bg has more case taper an will IMO feed an cycle better . the 460 an 45 raptor are basically straight .

This round is not trying to win a big dick contest its designed to get the most out of the space limitations of case that can fit in a AK or AR mag well an also meet MI an other states hunting regs . this round could be ran in a AR if it is loaded to safe power levels a 460 S&W round would be way to much pressure an the rimless 45 raptor is designed for 308 ARS .
IMO the 45 an 500 bullet choices are to heavy for the power capacity of a 1.80 long round unless you bigger OD an then you run into no really cheap available guns . to shoot it in . the 444-1BG can be ran in any bolt action that can shoot 309 270 30-06 243 ect . A savage axis would be a good starting point for a MI deer rifle an would handle loads of 65,000 PSI :)

Mole mans reamer can also cut a chamber deeper an if your not building a AK or hunting in Michigan a longer version that would be basically a 444 marlin rimless ( my original plan ) is very doable on a bolt action or a AK that's basical set up for 308 mags . A longer version would dust any 45raptor , 458 socom , 500 bewoulf as far as trajectory speed an energy.

444 marlin is only at 45,000 PSI if that same round was ran at 60,000 05 65 in a bolt gun it well up in 45-70 power levels but shooting flatter . :)

this round was original designed for AK,s with the AR an bolt actions as a possibility .
to run it in a AR your going to need a bolt that will handel a .470 rim like a 6mmBR bolt OR you could rebate the cases like some 6mm br shooters do in there ARs . In a AK I would load this round to about 50,000 PSI however a bit less does not really loose a lot of performance . Mole man has run a bunch of different combos on his program .

the trajectory of this round is pretty good to 200 yards were a big bore hunting round is generally used .

Mole man the reamer looks great . I cant wait to see that bolt action up an running .
 
#235 ·
Yep, those were my reasons for wanting one, 1BG has been looking at the cartridge a lot longer than I have and has a longer list. I did make the reamer longer so that a chamber for a case length of 2.25" can be cut (including the .125" the case sticks out of the chamber. I'm in a shotgun zone, but the DNR decided last year that straight walled pistol cases at least .35" dia and between 1.2 and 1.8" could be used also. If longer cases were allowed I'd go as long longer in the mauser build or just use my 444 marlin.
 
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