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12GA FH--Hairy Shotgun/Rifle--

57K views 425 replies 20 participants last post by  hubel458 
#1 ·
Some info you all may find interesting
in our 12GA FH testing and experimenting.
I'm visiting here and passing it on.Nice site here.
There are two videos of our 12GA FH on YouTube,
exploding big heavy walled plastic pails of water.
Not milk jugs , but 6 gal water in thick
plastic. with thick locked on lids........
The "Grampa's Cannon" one with a long view,
and "Grandpa's First Shot" a closeup video,
the first one, that shows how the top of heavy
shelf got bent. Later kids will do film videos showing
muzzle blast and recoil. We also have tested an
8GA FH, we made on an Enfield bolt action.
Also 3 ought buckshot from the 8ga load
goes through 2" hardwood ok. I will test
8ga on waterpail also, to see what happens. Ed
 
#182 ·
The long brass 10GA FH case shown above has a Lyman
slug in a thickwall 10ga steel shotcup that BPI sells.
That's a 12ga 525gr Lyman.Makes nice lighter slug for 10ga.
The slug has bottom chamfered to set in cup tight
and a little epoxy makes it one piece that makes it a discarding
sabot style like a SPW. That makes it front heavy so that it
is as accurate as Brenekke KOs in smoothbore. I'm
also working with a guys to cast long hollowbase 10ga slugs
like the ones Federal loads. We are figuring out molds now,
will probably make slugs about 850gr. Here is picture of
my 10GA FH NEF with long brass case started in the chamber.
Chamber is set for that 4.050" brass case and will shoot 3.5"
plastic cases also. I am going to put on a thumbhole Survivor
stock like I have on NEF 8ga we did.Ed



 
#184 ·
Hey Ed that revolver shotgun looks really neat! Would like to find more info on that one.

We toured the Cowboy Hall of Fame when I took the family on vacation last week - haven't toured that place since I was a kid - was surprised to see a Winchester lever-action shotgun on display that was used by a hold up gang and later confiscated by the local police. A lever-action 12GFH would be interesting!
 
#185 ·
ditto on the revolver shot gun thats pretty cool. I foolishly passed up a leveraction winchester shot gun at a yard sale for $250 about 6 years ago. then read how rare they were. Schwartsnager used a cut down one in terminator when riding the harley in the empty water canal.

Ive been wondering what kind of pressures I could run in a 410 type sgfh in a rifled barreld AK or sagia 410 build. was thinking a 2.5" brass shell with a protruding bullet like a rifle round. a rimless version could be made from a 30-06 case and would fit in a 3" mag. I was thinking if it ran around 45,000 PSI it would be a cheap way to build a big bore .44 0r .45 cal rifle/shotgun.

I know the 410 sagia can handel 444 marlin pressures. swap out the barrel for a .41
.44 or .45 rifled barrel what ever a straightend out 30-06 case lods the best likely a 45.
a .450 shot gun would be cool even in a smooth bore.

can a rimless shot gun shell be classifed as a shotgun shell ??
 
#187 ·
Unfortunately I can't find anything about that "revolver shotgun" at all - nothing. I would be interested to learn more!

Also, the only info I can find on lever action shotguns are that there are Chinese copies (the most common), an Italian copy that is only mentioned on a few reference sites, and a possible Australian copy due to hit the shelves "sometime soon".

Personally the Aussie or Italian copies would be my preference. Something about buying a Chinese copy of an American "cowboy" gun doesn't seem right. I've seen enough Spaghetti Westerns to make the thought of an Italian shotty feel OK! :D

The more I can't find one the more I want one! :)
 
#188 ·
Revisiting the question about soldering on the bases.

According to Chapter 5 of The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions (Donnelly & Towsley), you CAN solder the brass using silver solder and a propane torch. It calls for 30,000 PSI low temperature silver solder and flux:

Be very careful when soldering or in any way heating the head of a case. The best way is to stand the case, with the [resizing] ring in place, on a hot plate. Turn the heat on and hold the solder in place. The solder will flow when the head reaches the melting point of the solder. At the instant the solder flows, turn off the heat. Heating tends to anneal the brass in the head and can easily render it too soft for safe use. Allow the case to air-cool to ambient temperature. Do not quench in water! Slow air-cooling optimizes the hardness of the brass, whereas forced cooling causes it to anneal. This method of increasing rim diamter, by the way, is recommended only for cases that are used for black powder loads.
Later on, it states:

Soldered cases will absolutely come apart at 40,000-plus chamber pressures.
The silver solder used for tubing cases as described in this book - Brookstone catalog #S-01590 - has a melting point of 430 degrees F, and a tensile strength approaching 25,000 psi. [...] Cases that are soldered in this manner and with this solder are excellent for black powder and pyrodex loads and, in most instances, light to moderate charges of, say, IMR 4198.

Now it seems to me that if we are talking about 12 GFH loads of UP TO 20,000 psi, that silver soldering the bases will provide an adequate amount of strength since we're talking about working with loads within the tensile strength of that solder. Supposing the solder joint fails, would not the rim simply come loose from the case? We are talking about an area where the .50 BMG cartridge is REALLY thick brass, after all. Thoughts?
 
#189 ·
Well a lot of guys have soldered on small cases, but the larger the case the
more the radial stress is at same pressure inside the case. A 12ga case size,
I would definately only solder with low temp solder at 430 degrees.
That low a temp wouldn't hurt bmg case for 20-25,000 psi use.Thanks for info.

A rimless brass case won't be considered a shotgun. But if you put on a heavy
410 barrel, you can make a rimmed 410 from 9.3 x 74 brass. The best way
for getting a hopped up Saiga 410. cases are great and very strong.

The revolving shotgun is made in Rissia, and no one imports it that I
know of, No idea of price. The copies of the 1887 WIN leverguns are
made for importers in US, in china, Modern steel and heat treatment.
The one I have tested here is one of those replicas. Strong gun,looks neat.

We talk about liking the use of heavier slug barrels
in using our slow powder giving 1/3 faster loads
in plastic cases, and handling recoil better. It is
stiffer being heavy for an aid to accuracy.
Guy out west has this heavy muzzled, Hastings, rifled
barrel, for his REM 870. In first pic is a comparison to the
original 870 barrel. It shows a muzzle as heavy as on
a NEF Ultra Slug GUN. 2nd picture is the gun itself.
That makes a neat slug gun..Ed



 
#191 ·
You would do it rimmed for good headspacing just like the 410 case
has arim. A 30-06 straightened out wouldn't have no shoulder
to heaspace on. And there is a company making rifled
410 barrels. The 9.3 -74 case would make a super strong
and a longer case for greatest power at moderate pressure.
Any length case that Saiga could be reworked to handle.

The heavy rifled barrel in previous post was made by
Hastings for the Remington 870. It is 26" long and a
muzzle diameter of over an inch. Hastings is gone now,
but we'd like to find some of these barrels. The Hastings
number of the barrel is 560H90.

In the meantime Remington has come out with their
SPS Super Magnum Slug Gun with 25.5" rifled barrel and
a 1" diameter muzzle, with more solid barrel, and extra
pins in mounting barrel, so a scope can be put on action. Ed

 
#193 ·
You can but it stretches the base a little
and they aren't the long like a 9.3 x 74.


I am now putting a 3.5" 20ga on the FBW action.
We are having RMC make 3.5" brass 20ga cases. I also
bought a huge box of 3.5" plastic case Hastings
hot rod sabot slugs at their out of business auction.
Picture is of FBW with brass case in the feed trough.
Any wanting to do 20 ga brass cases, at same time,
contact RMC, they'd like to make a big batch this spring..
I also got few of the cases to make the 10ga FH
brass 4.050" long case. Anyone wanting one. I'll part
with them, but I'll only will have a few. The brass is hard
to find and costly.. Ed

 
#194 ·
I get asked about presses used for big cases.
Here is a picture of my 2 big presses on
the heavy bench, with the case spinner/lathe
on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut
Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster.
Both are braced so I can lean on them.Bench is
braced to wall supports and benches behind.

You can see the expanders laid out on the press
brace arms, and a whole bunch of shorty dies laid
out, that fit everything from 10ga down to
my 700HE. And variety of large cases and real large
4ga-8ga dies, parts I work with. On the right is a
stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed

 
#195 ·
Now might get real exciting load developement wise,
If we could make brass cases as long as the paper
one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic
case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting
a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third
a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot
liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think.
Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED

 
#196 ·
Here is picture showing surplus 50 Russian case before
and the 10ga brass case we make using it with
10ga bases pressed and epoxied on and expanding
case out straight, making the 4.050" long
10ga case.Makes a great 10ga FH.
And the case isn't weakened any, by the
process of putting on the rim.It will
stand any pressures any gun could...ED

 
#197 ·
Where are you finding Russian .50 brass? I know the guys building .50 Russian rifles were having a heck of a time finding brass

FYI I still haven't reamed my barrel, been too busy with other things and this keeps getting pushed to the back burner :( Now that its warming up I'm going to try to give it some attention!
 
#199 ·
Ed,

Thanks for the information! Looking at different reloading charts about the RE-17 (Reloader 17 by Alliant), it looks like it is close to H4350.

I can't find anything on where the 7383 falls in the list. I can only find Jeff's catalog listing explains that "You can work up loads using IMR4831 data, reduced 15% by weight". Not very scientific :) Do you have alternatives for 7383?

Based on the burn rates, would it be a reasonably safe assumption to say that 4350 could be used for 12 GFH loads?
 
#200 ·
The 8383 is about like 4831 and RE22 for speed.
Now the only reason I can use 7383 and RE17 in 12ga, is their deterrent
makeup allows them to be ignited reliably in 12ga with shotgun primers.
You can't use any other slow powders like 4320, 4350, 4831, RE15, RE 19, RE22,
7383,etc in 12ga with shotgun primers. To use those slower powders you
have to use our 12GA fh case made from BMG brass, with BMG primers
which are 3 times stronger primers.Ed
 
#201 ·
Ed, thanks for the info! As a matter of fact I am converting my cases to use shotgun primers with the insert, so that is definitely going to limit my powder selection. I don't want to limit my powder choices to something where I need to have duplex loads just for reliable ignition.

I am thinking about loading up some RE-17 rounds for the simple fact that it will be easier for me to buy that powder locally... 1 pound of powder is much more affordable than 7 pounds + hazmat shipping fees. Hard to do all of this on a tight budget! :)
 
#202 ·
We have put 4 different cartridges in the Savage 210
bolt guns. We added various 12ga and .700"
heavy thick barrels.
The first was our 12ga FH long case.
The second was my 700H 3.25" belted case.
Third was the 3.5" 12ga that Bret did, and
fourth is the 700NE that we wanted to see
how it works. It shoots fine, has weighted stock,
and a 27 inch barrel.Has a double thick pad.
I even have cast slugs for 700.
Cases are expensive, ones in picture are
20 bucks each...Ed

 
#203 ·
Here is picture of my Mossy 695 that has heavy barrel for
the our long 12ga cases, in fact it chambers the 12ga
belted shown in picture ok that I use for testing.
I set chamber to do belted as well as rimmed.

Second picture is some of my 585 Short HE cases, that work
great in regular length actions.We have these in Ruger,
Enfields, Mausers already. I have available supply of
brass for these of about 8-9000. Ed



 
#204 ·
Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and
falling block action locked down fired off some blank
type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up.
I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with a rod,
as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin
dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok.

For loads I have wads to take up space above powder.
Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about
1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug.

I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase slugs, with about 1/3 of a case
of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of RE17, rest filled
with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be
using THE STRONGER PRIMERS OF KILN CASES at about same
price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also
that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed
 
#205 ·
Ed,

I'm getting my reloading setup ready to go and I have a few questions, even after re-reading the entire discussion! :)


What are your recommendations to taper crimp for all-brass shells? I'm looking at all of my crimping dies and they are all use a collet crimper of some kind. Now, I have several large collets I use with my end mills, and I'm thinking I can figure a way to use them to crimp these large cases. Is there a specific kind of crimp that is needed, or do you think the collet idea will work?


Do you have primer recommendations? I'm planning to use Winchester or Cheddite 209 shotshell primers unless you recommend a different brand?


Recommendations for a wad column? Several times you mention not to have any space in the shell, use cork or filler to take up the space. Do you have any favorite commercial wads you like to use? I'm probably going to start with some 400gr and 600 gr slugs.


Thanks!
 
#206 ·
Taper crimping works good and is easiest on brass cases.
Rmc thick brass is harder to crimp, and ROB and Rip
have used collets. The Win And Rem primers ok.
Secret is really making sure you have good strong pin strike
and at least .065" pin protrusion.
Using our slower powder loads---
For powder seals I like the BPI BPGS seals one or two and the
BPI flexseal for cushion. get a BPI catalog and there you can
see and get alot of ideas. Yes you don't want any air space
and if more filler is needed above flexseal the cork wads
or fiber wads work.If you use lyman slug in wads cups
they will have a cushion and the BPGS seal fits uder them.
If using saboted slug the flexseal and/or cork under sabot.ED
 
#207 ·
Fired 4bore with 760 gr light round ball with
fiber wads under it, using 150gr Blue Dot
and shotgun primer case. Just starting loads
for testing operation. Hardly no recoil,
like a heavy, beefed up blank load,
could go much higher with that light
of round ball. Will have pics of the muzzle
blast and the gun shooting from the side,
using heavier slugs in a week or so.
In Owen's 4bore double,that uses same case
size they use max of 110gr of Blue Dot
with 2000 gr slug. Ed

 
#208 ·
Fired the 4bore with the 760 gr round ball,
which is a hard rubber coated steel ball,
thus the light weight compared to lead,
using 100gr of Blue Dot under 300gr RE17,
total 400gr. Hairy load, with 3500 fps, and
20,000 ft lbs. Used the turned 4bore cases,
with shotgun primers, and with that light
projectile case doesn't need sizing. This is
good beginning bullet weight for early testing.
I am gonna do 1200gr and 1600gr holding the
speeds to give about same energy.
I won't load heavier until I get another
stock like one I have that is full width.
Also those who want 3.5" 20ga brass cases,
Rocky Mtn Cartridge is making them now.ED
 
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