Does that mean you have your adapters back into production full force? That is great news. And yes, there are always going to be some people that you can never please. Then again, you have to wonder what is worse: That this person is buying adapters and trying to handle mechanical issues above his comprehension; OR, that he is actually PLAYING WITH GUNS!!!! Anyway, glad to hear things are back into production. I foresee a lot of happy customers for you. Later... Mike.....
Originally Posted by christcorp
I'll send you an adapter free of charge to test fit against RB's under the condition you post back here you exact findings. I have seen enough "speculation" and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. The MSA adapter is no harder to fit, it requires the same amount of work. And that WORK is subject to YOUR installation skills which we can agree varies from person to person.
Yes my instructions may seem like "Brain Surgery" but I am an engineer and deal in facts and exact measurements not shade tree dremel guesstimates. My adapter requires .06" of material to be removed outside of the given dimensional mag standards .90". I have seen cowboy dremel jobs remove more than that. So if we are splitting hairs over .06" then I find this laughable. I pay insurance to cover product liability. You have to submit, in detail, how to install* and packaging information to the underwriter to even be considered for insurance.
*But also in my instructions are pretty pictures for those who don't like to read :)
When dealing with a firearm that has the potential to kill you, should it fail, where do you compromise your safety? Fact of the matter is I have had ZERO, let me repeat ZERO, rifle failures reported with use of the MSA adapter. Not bashing, just stating a fact. Two installers used dremels and destroyed their rifle. Cause of failure (from an engineers perspective) improper installation and the excessive removal of material. I offered to buy the guys riffle to lay this issue to rest. However he has alternative plans to replace and use the MSA adapter.
Bottom line. I will provide you a safe, precision engineered/precision CNC manufactured rifle accessory constructed from T6061 aluminum. Mil Spec anodized...... that weighs in at 4oz. The instructions to install and pretty pictures to stare at. If you wish to take me up on this offer please email me and reference this post so I will recognize who you are.
And a bit of news while I am here. MSA is releasing a LRBHO for our adapters next month.
I appreciate the offer. I have adapted mine however to fit Renegadebuck's. ( I only had to adapt to allow the AR magazine to fit "Deeper" into the mag well. That's the only modification I had to do. Wasn't hard at all. And if a person waits to get the adapter, you wouldn't even need instructions. It's quite obvious what needs to be done. The part I mentioned about the paddle of the Saiga mag release was just for convenience. And each rifle has different tolerances, so that isn't unreasonable.
I definitely appreciate the offer to evaluate your new adapter against Renegadebuck's. While I would love to try it out, I have to be honest and say that I'm not going to have ANY additional milling or grinding done to my rifle: Under ANY circumstances. NOW: If the modifications I did (Minor to allow the AR mags to seat deeper into the mag-well) I did for Renegadebuck's adapter is sufficient to also allow your adapter to work, then I'd be interested in looking at it. But I didn't have to do any modifying of the mag well opening or ANY other part of the rifle, other than the 2 nubs on the trunnion to allow the AR adapter to seat deeper. Your call. If you think I can test yours without any additional modifications, I'll give it a try. But I'm not going to "RISK" Renegadebuck's adapter not working again, which is a known good working product, by having to adapt my gun additionally for an adapter than isn't proven. PM if you want to. Mike....
No that is fine, you have already proven my point. You say you went "deeper" to allow an AR mag to fit in. In truth you opened it up as well. Like I said I deal in truth and fact in the instructions and you can not just go "deeper". You also have to open the well up in width also. The ledge you want to make "deeper" is cast and measured in width not depth. The type of mags used in the Saiga import is not the same as the Bulgy or Weiger. Go to a few gun shows and peek the wells you'll see what I am talking about. Fact is an AR mag is wider than a stock mag. No skirting the laws of physics here. A simple way of testing is grab a caliper and measure a stock trunnion and your milled/dremel one. Dimes to doughnuts you opened it up anywhere from the stock width to a width of .89 to .90 and possibly .91 if you are using a Magpul PMag.
Originally Posted by christcorp
By not needing instructions what you've provided was a general "put this on and look down the well and you see what needs to be removed" kind of perspective. Yes same could be said about the MSA adapter. It's not rocket science. Re reiterate I provide exact measurements not eyeball details. I did post photos for comparison... this is so you can have a comparison. I think a photo is worth a thousand words. Plus I like the nice clean look.
In closing, the customer RB had issue with on the mag rock is due to the same thing I am explaining to you. You can not expect to fit a AR mag and not have any rock with the Bulgies or other. This is due to opening up the width of the well. My whole purpose in addressing this was that for a while now the misconception of the "Ease of installation" of RB's adapter over mine is based on nothing but false information. Had it been true, the the customer who melted on RB at 3am would have never happened. Once again I thank you for conversing with me on it.
No, I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. I did NOT have to OPEN it up as well. The AR magazines fit LEFT and RIGHT just fine. I simply went DEEPER. Your 2nd picture where you show .96, I simply ground the nubs deeper so the magazine would go deeper. There are still nubs there on the trunnion, just not as thick. You might say that that is semantics and that I indeed made it "Wider"; at least at the BOTTOM of the nubs. That could in fact be viewed that way. But there are some people who milled both nubs totally from the inside outward and there is no nub left.
And to be honest, there is not that significant of a difference between the stock magazine and the AR. It's all a matter of the lip on the magazine resting in the right spot. In other words, I could totally modify an AR magazine, and not have to touch the rifle at all to make the Renegadebuck adapter work. That sort of defeats the purpose obviously, but the point is that a regular AR magazine fits fine in my Saiga. It just doesn't go deep enough. Thus, the grinding/milling of the nubs on the trunnion DOWNWARD (Looking from the bottom going towards the top). That is one reason I was so interested in the Renegadebuck setup. If for whatever reason, I simply snap out the adapter, and use the oem/surefire/promag magazines again.
Now, if what I did for the Renegadebuck adapter is enough of a change also for your MSA adapter to work, then yes, I'd be interested in trying one of yours out. And I would give an honest opinion. But I will be honest; if I can't simply snap the adapter in and throw an AR magazine in it and make it shoot; and I would need to alter/change anything else on the gun; then I would simply return it to you and say that I can't evaluate it. Basically, I don't want to have to modify any additional metal to make the MSA work, and "RISK" the Renegadebuck adapter not being able to work again.
But, if you believe that the grinding I did to make the AR mag fit with the Renegadebuck adapter is the same for your adapter, and that I wouldn't have to do anything different; then I would indeed be interested in comparing the two.
No, I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. I did NOT have to OPEN it up as well. The AR magazines fit LEFT and RIGHT just fine. I simply went DEEPER. Your 2nd picture where you show .96, I simply ground the nubs deeper so the magazine would go deeper.
Did you use a drill to remove the material? No you came in from the side on the "X" and "Y" axis. Therefore you opened it up... go to a CNC shop and ask them about starting points AKA "Reference Point"
There are still nubs there on the trunnion, just not as thick. You might say that that is semantics and that I indeed made it "Wider"; at least at the BOTTOM of the nubs. That could in fact be viewed that way.
You said I'm wrong then you say I'm right, which is it? Fact is you are dealing in 3D and removal of material with a cutter, not a drill, which travels just one axis. Yes this is what I am trying to get you to understand.
But there are some people who milled both nubs totally from the inside outward and there is no nub left.
So what your saying is they are widening the trunnion and not making it deeper? Seriously are you changing work planes again?
Semantics at this point as we are at different starting points. You are arguing the same thing I am but from a different starting point. You reference everything in 2D, yet explain in 3D. You keep referencing the "Z" axis where as I reference the "X" for YOUR 2D view of looking into the magwell..... as this pertains to WIDTH of the AR mag. This is where we are differing. And to correct you if you still have material then you need to reference both "X", "Y" and "Z".... You choose to only acknowledge everything in 2D yet reference a "Z" (3rd)axis. Sorry, I'm an engineer and your explanation is not sound. Start looking at everything in 3D as you are not holding a piece of paper.
And to be honest, there is not that significant of a difference between the stock magazine and the AR.
And once again you are not correct as to the difference between AR and stock mags. AR is wider just acknowledge the fact, or you wouldn't have to remove material.
I could totally modify an AR magazine, and not have to touch the rifle at all.
I pointed this out before when RB suggested (Last year) you mod the mag. When you do so and the follower tilts which it will be prone to do and you get a primer strike or nosedive. Send me the photos so I can say I told you so when it happens. You do NOT modify a mag in such a way. The only thing you have proven is your safety is not worth a thing as you do not understand the relation of the follower in a mag body.
I can sit here all day and debate the issue.... problem is you and I are saying the same damn thing which was my point all along. The install method of both adapters are identical. I'm not gonna waste time trying to explain when technically your right, but your explanation is wrong..... And you're trying to correct my verbage to suit your defense. At least to those who deal in 3D.
LOL this has been great. And yes I do want to send you an adapter.... There are two install methods to choose use the second as you will see it snaps right in.
Originally Posted by renegadebuck
Do you have any of your adapters available. I tried to pm you but I don't have enough posts.
Originally Posted by Falcon09
It will be 10 days - 2 weeks before delivery. I sent you a PM.
Originally Posted by nalioth
hey nalioth! i see you and Beavis are still buddies. :geezer:
being an "old fart" isn't an excuse either.:nono2:
renegadebuck : The New machined Adapter for .223 works on Saiga .
Will it work on the Norinco BWK-92 in .223 ?