Between this, and seeing the latest Taurus Judge in a SHOT show article that's chambered for .45LC, .454 Casull & .410.. this got me to thinking..
Originally Posted by nalioth
if you started with a flat (or Pistol reciever, for that matter), and put on a .45 barrel chambered for .45LC or .454 Casull & reamed it out as required for a .410 shell- then you could have a 10" barrel or so, that could do .410 rounds similar to a Judge, but in a rifled barrel, so it's legally a pistol... it wouldn't pattern worth a damn as a shotgun, but it would be more functional than the Judge..
you could put an adjustable gas system on it, similar to the Saiga with Gasfixr plug.. maybe with different mags, you could run .45LC or .454 Casull through it, too (maybe go for this 1st, then the .410 is an afterthought?)... what about the next level- .460 S&W Magnum?
I thought about a rifled barreld pistol and rifle that used 410 cases with a protruding bullet. I started a thread on it a year or so ago. its doable but a 410 rifled pistol shooting shot would be next to worthless except in a very close quarters situation. IMOO. it would likely not be very accurate in 454 lc or Casull with all the free bore and chamber issues to make it accept the 410 shell. a 444 marlin pistol would be better and you could load shot into those cases if you had the desire to have a SG round. 444 marlin is almost 2.5 long so you could nrarly equal a 2.5" 410 round.
Im still trying to get time and money to finish the 444????? project.
Im planing on a 3" chamber 410 barrel on my switch barrel build it would be pretty easy once the bugs are worked out to make a identical barrel except rifled and run .44 or 45 bullets protruding from a brass case like a normal rifle round. check out the 12 guage SGFH in the general discussion. it would be like that but a mini SGFH. it would be pretty damm close to a 45-70 also in power as well. a rimless wild cat would be doable and then factory bolts opend up slightly would work. a rimless 410 shell can be made from 30-06 or simular brass BTW.
there is a poor mans big bore there some were and it would have the case capacity to blow the doors of the the 450 bushmaster, 458 SOCOm and likely the 50 beowulf.
I have been looking at 284 win brass as well as 7mm mag brass for a possable 450 wild cat Shotgun round as well it would fall between a 410 an a 28 guage. wads would be a issue possably the 458x2" is doable as well. the lug spacing gets pretty tight on the magnum brass and it wont clear. it would be doable on 308 Sagia however. Im not sure if .284 brass will clear the lugs but it might.
Its all doable with money and time.
I've been playing with some bits. An M-14 magazine can be slid up high enough in the trunnion for the shell to have an almost straight shot at the chamber. The bolt and bolt carrier vs. the mega-spring in the M-14 mag would beat the heck out of a shotshell, I bet. The M-14 spring is noticeably stiffer than a G3 spring. Never having seen a Saiga .410, I have no idea how stiff one of those springs is.
The M-14 follower has nothing much to keep it from tilting. The last shell would get flipped up in the front as the folower tilted. The next-to last and other shells have no problem, as far as I can see. Also, the rear of the lips need to be beveled to accept the rim, and the same for the back of the follower.
The G3 feed is nearly perfect, follower, lips, and all, but either the front of the mag or the trunnion need to be thinned for the trunnion to accept the magazine. Though this could be done, it would leave no room for a rivet, and maybe two threads on a screw. I know several .308 conversions have been done with G3 mags, but I think the M-14 might work out better.
I think some experimentation with magazine springs would be indicated; winding progressively weaker springs until feed problems manifested, then going back to a stiffer spring. You could wind music wire over a wooden form.
This sort of thing is why many early bolt-action rifles had weird double-lever arrangements under the follower - the spring(s) gained mechanical advantage as the follower went up, so as you fed or emptied the magazine, the pressure of the cartridges against the feed lips was fairly constant. With a straight coil spring, the pressure is drops linearly as the magazine empties. With the 50-round magazine on my MAC-11, the coil spring is so tight it sometimes double-feeds the top rounds, while the last few don't come up fast enough for the bolt to catch them on the rebound. Basically, the magazine doesn't work very well, though it's an OEM factory part.
The lever-follower mags went away because simple leaves or coils worked well enough for metallic cartridges, and because they were complex. Most of them only handled five cartridges; it would have required a stack of levers to feed more, which would have been a hassle.
Still, it would be nice for something like that to feed shotshells, so they wouldn't get all mashed out of shape if you put the gun away while loaded.
.410 is Go
Okay, the Voices wore me down. I ordered a Romanian underfolder kit and a 24" .410 barrel, originally for a Mossberg. I'll have to fill the dovetail on the bottom that was to hold the forend.
I made a deal with a friend for his Chinese underfolder FSB, so eventually I should have a double underfolder .410. It doesn't have a bayonet, but I should be able to score one eventually.
I could justify it as a "close quarters weapon", but really, I'm doing it because it should look cool when it's done...
I have been thinking more about a shot gun barrel for my switch barrel build.
a rimless smooth bore version could easly be made using straightend out 30-06 cases they would come out to 2.5".
a standard bolt could be opened slightly and used as is. a 308 length mag would work. it would have to head space on the case mouth but other than that it would work and you would not need a 410 bolt. Im thinking I could run the same bolt as my rifle barrels will use.
HMMMM is a rimless shotgun shell legaly considered shot gun shell??????
a magnum case could be made into a .500 guage possable. A wildcat AK shot gun would be kind of cool. a .460 weaterby mag case would could make a pretty cool aprox
.550 shot gun .
I have been saring at a 28 guage shell all day trying to figure a way to get one to work.
a rifled 28 guage barrel would make a serious big bore with a shot gun from hell protruding slug. Im pretty sure they make 28 guage brass shells. might be able to rebate the rim to fit a standard bolt a little better. even in a smooth bore a 28g would be a hell of a lot more use full on birds game and defense with shot. a 2" WSM case would make a pretty potent shot gun shell as well. It may be a way to possably have a over .50 cal with a rifled barrel an not be a destructive device.
are there any laws that say a shot gun shell has to have a rim to be classifed as a shot gun??
thinking about this a little more using brass cases some pretty hot 410 shells could be loaded for the 410 sagia. 3" brass shells can be made I have a 3"Saiga. Id like to find some 2.5" mags for it.
here is a link on making your own shells from 444 marlin, 303 british and the 9.3x74
Reloading .410 Bore Shotshells
to bad I cant hunt deer in my state with a 410 a rifled barreld 45,000 Psi 410 slug would be sweet and shoot flat.
hmmm a 32 guage 0r if you could find a .52 rifled barrel like used in 52-70 sharps
or a 28 guage brass and a .55 rifled bore like in the 55-100 maynard.
32 guage and 28 all brass shells below a really cool SGFH type shotgun/rifle auto loader could be built , like .55x2.5" . Id like to see the AR15 boys beat that LOL
Magtech Brass Shotgun Shells - Black Powder Cartridge / Cowboy Gun / Obsolete Caliber / Military Gun
here are some bore sizes
Black Powder Shotgun Shells
Remember you can use .303 shells for full-brass .410 cases so that may be a good path for all-brass cases.
Im looking at the rimless set up really hard, 30-06 brass is pretty cheap and it can be blown out easly. a rimless smooth bore would make a nifty rabbit, bird gun and a extra barrel on the switch barrel would be easy. the rimless would make it easy to make a mag feed. a 308 mag wont work due the the ribs or reduction in width were the round necks down. but a rectangular box that mimiced the out side dimensins of say a g3 would be easy.
the 9.3x74 brass would make nice 3" type rounds.
I shoot sporting clays ocasionaly and they give extra points for sub guages like 20, 28 410. the 410 gets extra points. a 3" magnum high pressure 40,000 PSI load might really be an advantage. it would really piss of the traditionalists if I showed up with a 410 or 28 guage super magnum auto loader. I was considering brass shells as they allow more shot and can be longer due tio the grimp dont have to clear the barrel on extraction.
I won a shoot there last year shooting a $75 20g remington A5 style auto loader I got at a garage sale with a poly choke and pissed off some guys with $10,000 shotguns. LOL
I have been keeping my eye out for some 303 brass. I really need 3" shells unless I buy 2.5 mags for my Sagia 410.
I have been studying the shrouded barrel that the 410 sagia uses and it should not be that hard If I had a 410 reamer.
I bet a 45,000 PSI rifled slug might shoot pretty good out a smooth bore.
I ordered a Romy underfolder flat from AK-Builder for $35, and went ahead and got a 2XTM flat for $30 for the other build.
I need an FAL magazine to compare to the G3 and M-14 mags, but it will have to wait until I find one somewhere where I can combine shipping with some other stuff.