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Thread: Vepr Accuracy ??? AKs in general with scopes

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    Gunco Rookie 762x39run's Avatar
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    Postak Vepr Accuracy ??? AKs in general with scopes

    I have a new Molot vepr (unmodified) and put a Texas Dogleg scope mount on it. The gun with dogleg mounted peep site will group 1/2" all day with Wolf at 25yrds. Mount is solid. It will group 1" or 1.5" at 50 yrds (5 shot groups). My CAI and Saiga (both iron sites) will do the same with wolf at those ranges. I wear bifocals so thats my limit. I put cheap necstar scope on it (2x7) and at 100 yrds, 1st shot is 5" lo and it climbs until 5th shot 4-5" high. Horizontal is good never more then 1.5" either side.Scope locktited and like 25th one I,ve mounted.I have had different shooters get same results. I have eliminated all the variables but gun and scope. So here is the rub, couple guys at range tell me there Aks shoot fine until warm/ hot then groups climb like 5"-7". I know and have heard of POI changeing after gun hot but 5"-9" at 100yrds? Anybody ever hear that AKs in particular really change radically more then bolt actions etc when hot? Is it just a shit scope or is AK more heat sensitive then most rifles.

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    Gunco Addicted for life j427x's Avatar
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    i going to say "shit scope" is problem #1 and NCstar is about the bottom of the shit scope dog-pile. i hate to sound like a scope snob but i'm not sure if NC star was giving away scopes that i would even bother to pick one up. you might well be better off with irons IMHO.--

    there may be some variations with the ammo as well -- i have has some steel jacketed 7.62 would that will do 1.5" and less @ 100m from a ar-15 -- and other batches that are more like 3"+ make sure you got a good shooting batch before you test. if the bullets arn't uniform in size they will print everywhere. steel jacketed bullets arn't know for 'match grade accuracy and some times when the bullet making machine ain't on the $$$ they puke out some real flyers--

    mounts can be big pain with the AK too so triple check everything in the mounting set up.

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    No Hope For Me Coils's Avatar
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    Never shot a VEPR, so can't comment on them.

    I put cheap necstar scope on it (2x7) and at 100 yrds, 1st shot is 5" lo and it climbs until 5th shot 4-5" high
    How many times have you done this? It sounds more like something is moving on the optics setup.


    So here is the rub, couple guys at range tell me there Aks shoot fine until warm/ hot then groups climb like 5"-7". I know and have heard of POI changeing after gun hot but 5"-9" at 100yrds? Anybody ever hear that AKs in particular really change radically more then bolt actions etc when hot?
    Never heard of one having that much of a change, unless they were doing multiple mag dumps and getting the barrels smoking hot.
    Other then the PSL/Romak3 (over sized AK in 54r), their barrels are thin/skinny and do act like this when they get really hot.
    Unless those guys had AKs with US barrels of unknown quality.


    The only other thing I can say to try is better ammo or load some of your own and try different loads.
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    GuncoHolic Tommo's Avatar
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    Had a Norinco Sporter years ago and as it heated up, the group location would move about ten inches across the target. I did not notice this with standard AKs. I think the front handguard was the problem because it wrapped around the front of the receiver instead of being inserted into the front of the receiver.

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    HMMMMMM

    the mount could be a issue however if its walking the scope as the gun warms up . just a possibility. I am not a fan of any of those mounts were the recvier touches the mount .

    sounds like you have a bad barrel that has stress an is walking as it warms up .

    what caliber is this? veprs are generally said to be good shooters .

    shooting wolf for target work is like pissing into the wind how ever if your gettig the same issues every time then some hting is likely affected by heat an its likely the barrel . a 10" spread is really a problem . how many shots does this take ?


    So here is the rub, couple guys at range tell me there Aks shoot fine until warm/ hot then groups climb like 5"-7".
    Bull ShIt I have lots of aks that will shot inot a 4" cirlce no matter what im doing . wit in reason. 5 shots will not make the impact move 5 inches .

    If your shooting 1" groups at 5 yards with irons then ou should be doing about 3 " or so at 100 yards . If your not getting the verticla stringing with just irons at fo then Id not be so fast to call the barrel bad . If the only change is adding a scope then id be looking hard at the mount an scope an what its attached to .

    I dont see how a scope is going to consistantly caue verticle stringing from low to high in five shots everytime . bad scopes generaly shoot all over the palce with no pattern .

    after the gun cools do the impacts drop again or do you have to readjust the scope ?

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    3/6 Infantry mtdew's Avatar
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    Something may be tight like gas tube and when it heats up and "grows" it starts putting pressure on the bbl maybe? Seems like the shots would go lower if that were the case. Just spitballin' here.
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    Gunco Regular willie's Avatar
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    Does your first shot from a cold barrel repeat? Shoot one shot and wait 30 minutes. Repeat this over two hours. If it repeats consistently it is not the scope. If it is consistently on target you have two choices, 1.fuk with until you are happy or crazy, 2.make your first shot count as your first shot is going to be the best shot anything that follows is a bonus of opportunity. I love to hog hunt and go for the head shot on the first shot everything after is center mass on the run, bonus pigs.

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    Gunco Addicted for life j427x's Avatar
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    take the vepr to the range set it in a vice or very solid gun rest.

    pull the scope off , pull the cover and the bolt carrier, with a small mirror bore-sight barrel on to the center of the cardboard target --set the target to 50m , where the center of the cardboard target/box is visible through the bore of the rifle.

    install the carrier the spring and the cover , hand load one round into the barrel and fire , don't worry too much where the round hit the box , carefully without moving the rifle from the vice--fire a few more rounds . if nothing has moved they should be stacking in about the same hole.

    if all rounds are hitting in that same impact as the first--

    step #2 throw scope in trash bin!


    i don't think you got a barrel problem --most likely you junk scope has a wandering zero.

    i have seen quite a few bad scopes, not so many bad barrels -- i have a yugo SKS that was under someones house for 20 years ,corrosive ammo= rusted, pitted bore --after some serious scrubbing i got it up to a "dark bore" and it still shoots better than what your vepr/NC star is doing.

    so something is way off here-- you might have a bad barrel --but check all the other little things that could throw it off first--

  9. #9
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    If the gun shots the same verticle sting from low to high ever time you shoot a cycle going from hot to cold I doubt its the scope .

    the gas tube might be a issue the mount might be heating up an doing weird stuff but if its verticle stinging the same way very time i jsut dont see a scope doing that. try running the tube loose . you can put a rubber band around it .

    If you have other guns try the scope on them .

    You can also get a different cheap scope for about $30 ( I like the BSA,s for a cheep scope ) an just try a different scope . It never hurts to have a spare or just resell it Natchez has some pretty good deals on line .

    Id also get some better ammo so you can tell better what the guns is doing . I have never seen wolf shoot under 3" at 100 yards . yet the same guns awill shot 3/4 moa with hand loads . I relaize the guns seems fine cloe range but good ammo eliminates flyers an makes figuriong out other issues . its hard to tell whats going on with 4" moa ammo on a problem gun .

    any mount that runs from the RSB the to the rear trunion si going to be affected by any changes in pressure on the recvier or stock . Im not a fan of any nmount that touches the revier on a stamped AK . you got a lot of stuff affecting the mount on that set up .

    the whole your shooting 1" groups at 50 yards with irons but 10" groups at 100 with optics raises a lot of questions . what does the gun do at 50 with the scope on ? if its a barrel issue its going to string at 50 also with or with out a scope .

    Id bet the mount is the problem before the optic . If you ever saw the slow mo pics of a AK it wold scare you side mounts ack like there made of spaghetti if you have high rings that will make it even worse . the dog leg is going to be affected by recvier flex an stock pressure as well .

    The other issue is a lot of guys when going to optics shoot worse if they have aheavy trigger an oter issues becase the cross hairs really seem to be all over the place an guys try to hard . lets not rule out human factors here also .

    I can shoot my 223 AK better at 100 yards on 15x than I can on 24x . on 24 x it seems like im never perfect an i end up shootng worse . its sort of like a guy shooting a 22 off hand at 50 yards the harder he tries the worse he does . then he just pics it up aims fast an shoots an does much better .

    what are you using to bench the gun? It shuld be a good front rest or bags an a bag in the rear . also are you doing any thing different in how you bench the gun when going from 50 to 100 yards . On a AK with a mount thats affected by receiver flex how you bench an hold the gun makes a difference . ow much pressure you put on the fore end, the grip how you pull the stock in or not will really matter . i can affect groups on my non cantilver mount aKs just by the down pressure on the bags an how I shoulder it.

  10. #10
    Gunco Rookie 762x39run's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the good ideas. I dont know where to start with all the ?s. I got a proven bushnell 3x9 in the wings to eliminate or prove cheap scope theory. I going to do some iron site shooting at 100 yrds to re-check vertical strings. The scope is alittle more sporatic at 50yrds then iron site but useing 2 different shooters its usually only 1 shot out of 5 (thats out of group) as I always shoot 5 shot groups, same ammo lots, good bench rest etc.. I,m anal to eliminate variables and try my best to make every function of the shot repeatable as humanly possiable. I have shot 3-4 strings at 50yrds so hot, then go right to (5-10minutes) 100 with scope and it still starts lo then goes hi. I thinking scope big time but need to prove my theory.

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