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'Confederate' AK in .36 caliber (9x39mm)

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#1 ·
As a spinoff of this thread, is anyone familiar with the GUNS OF THE SOUTH?
(See this thread http://www.gunco.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8039 )

I was toying with what would an AK built under mid-19th century conditions be like?
The steel mags are basically doable at that time.
The receiver, milled.
The round a .36 caliber (9mm x 39) loaded with patched lead rounds and black powder.
This caliber is already used in Russian special purpose weapons like the VSS (albeit with FMJ rounds).
Cartridge
Metric designation
Bullet weight, g
Muzzle velocity, m/s
comments

9mm SP-5
9x39
16.8
280
Subsonic ball
9mm SP-6
9x39
16
280
Subsonic AP
See also
http://www.gunco.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17092

The barrel would need to be at least 20" long, to wring the most out of the black powder.
The front sight base and gas chamber in cast brass.
The finish non-existent (as period arms can "armory bright")
The bayonet a socket type with spike blade (like a Mosin Nagant's)
All furniture of wood, not laminated.
The rear buttstock longer, with a brass buttplate and a definative wrist ( like the SMLE's).

And it'd be engraved with something like Tredegar Iron Works Self-Loading Carbine, calibre .36
:brows:
 
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#2 ·
The problem I would see it having is in cycling.
Blackpowder is lower in power (per volume that is-it takes a LOT of it).
There would not be enough cycle power for the gas piston or spring.
Not from such a tiny cartridge loaded with black.
The spring and stuff would have to be equal to the ak-22.
Second-that thing would foul up and quit cycling within just a few shots. No kidding.
The gatling gun of that era, was only able to work, because of the many barrels and a non-self loading mechanism---in other words--you had to crank it.

Nice idea though!!!! I love thinking about how we could have won that war.
 
#15 ·
The problem I would see it having is in cycling.
We know an AK will go through at least one magazine of black powder reloads without a stoppage.

Even if it stopped there, that's 30 rapid-fire rounds, and you could strip it, rod out the gas system, and reassemble it faster than you could reload a muzzle-loader.

However, even if you left the gas system off and operated it as a straight-pull bolt action, the firepower advantage over the enemy would still be enormous. Even 50 years later, most of the world's military considered five rounds to be sufficient for a battle rifle, the only notable exception being those wacky Brits with an astonishing *ten* rounds in their Enfields.
 
#3 ·
Yeah, I've thought of those drawbacks. Remember, this is an exercise not in *if* it could be done, but how.

The 8X50R M.1888 scharfe Patrone was loaded with a 244gr round nosed bullet and a 62gr charge of compressed black powder . This gave the bullet an approximate velocity of 1,750fps out of the Steyr 1888's 30" barrel.

Remember, muzzle loaders could only be fired a dozen times or so before the fouling had to be cleaned out (often with urine behind the firing line). So a fouled repeater would just be part of the soldier's life and probably why 20 round magazines would be the preferred issue item.

With the sand-cast brass gas chamber, a threaded and slotted bolt along the horizontal line would act as a clean-out channel.

(And it could just as easily be a .36 calibre Spencer Self-Loading Carbine, Tremont St Boston MA :lol: )
 
#4 ·
This exersise is not something I would do BUT you might consider doing it in a pump action like some of the California guns then you could blast away till the barrel fouled any way. I would look at the 458 SOCOM or 50 Beowulf possaably necked down some. these rounds would hold enough powder. they are compared to the 45-70 in balistics but with modern powder.. another posibilty would be using a 308 WIN length round like the 338-08 or possably the Win short Mag rounds or the WIN Super short MAG round as they would hold enough powder. there is a levithan round that is based on on the Win SSM that is shortend more to fit in a AK mag. I dont think it would be impossable to get a black powder AK to cycle It would be a mess in a very short time but it would be cool to see 30 rounds of black powder go off in a hurry I suspect you would need a good cros wind to keep the target in the picture. GOOD LUCK
 
#5 ·
this is first for me a black powder AK
why not lighten the bolt and spring make it a five-ten shot, even with pyrodex you will get significate powder residue. I think this will be strictly blow back, and block off the gas vent
just follow other's 9mm builds

a confederate ak american ingenuity

sprat
 
#6 ·
Blow back is a good idea. I dont think the spring would need to be made much weaker as I belive a stock spring is used on the 9mm builds and that has some pretty low chamber pressures. This build would be a alternitve in a post apopylipical scene were ammo is gone and we are all driving around in bizar looking hot rods chasing each other down for Gasoline. (watched road warrior last night)
 
#7 ·
Oh

if you do load the black powder and or substitute (pyrodex)make sure you use magnum/hot primers. I ve never done a 9mm ak so if thats the case then leave the spring alone, the bolt carrier could be lightened if needed. yes I agree great post apocalyptic adapation. little corrosion if you use a chrome lined barrel

one could almost write a book around it/ sell TV rights wake up sprat!!

sorry if folk's view some of my post's as negitive, it how you read them

sprat
 
#8 ·
Somewhere on YouTube there's a clip of someone blowing through a magazine of BP reloads in an AK. Looked like a fog bank, but it made it through at least one magazine with no misfires, stovepipes, FTEs, or FTFs.

The AK's gas system is *very* forgiving; it's virtually the same in OEM calibers from .35 Remington to .30-'06 and 7.62x54R. The only time they needed to change it was for the Saiga shotguns.
 
#41 ·
I am with TRX on this one. The AK gas system can take an EXTREME amount of fouling. In fact, I personally think you could go 500+ rounds of BP or Pyrodex before any issues. I would be more wary of something like lead fouling (assuming un-jacketed bullets) or chamber fouling before I would go to the gas system. Springs and all of that would need to be researched to determine the right combo. And that means math and good old fashioned trial and error. Mikhail himself admitted to a great deal of redesign based on trial and error. I would say that that is one reason that the AK has been so successful....Real world testing, and numbskull methods to prove or disprove the reliability and resilience of the system as a whole. In other words, FOOLPROOF TESTING.

I always prefer to describe the SKS and AK as weapons that were designed to be operated by superstitious, illiterate peasants. I think it is true. And I think that this is the basis of the legend and the reality of the AK system. Shear numbers aside, name any one weapons system that is as adaptable, as reliable, as easy to operate and maintain as the AK. I own them all. I love each of them for their own reasons. And try as I might, I still can not improve on the AK for simple...For reliable...For accurate as the round it fires...For knock down within the designed envelope. Our best body armor is still not proof against 7.62x39 within 100 meters. Still needs plates. Plates do not protect 100%.....

So, back to a Confederate AK....It is doable, I believe it would work. I think that 9x39 would be a great starting point. Add in a chrome lined bore....I would take that to war. The reported smoke-screen might just be useful.....
 
#9 ·
sounds like a cool idea. what about using the 11x60mmR BP or also something like the .43 mauser that they used in the gewehr 71. I'm sure you could find brass for it but might be pricey. though when i think of a bp reloading carbine i start thinking of 45-70. you could also look into using .45 colt if you want a pistol round but i think the power from those is pretty anemish in bp form but it would give you a standardized ammo if you had a .45lc revoler. or the .44-40 for pistol. so are you actually going to build something of this idea? I would love hearing more, i think it's an awesome idea also i remember reading about some of the experimental advanced technologies they had in the civil war years and it was quite interesting. if i find anything that could help you i'll let you know. or you could always make a turn of the century type ak with some british round using cordite propelant :brows:
 
#10 ·
For the record I started on muzzel loading AK,s built from spare parts A few years back. not Semi auto but the mag makes a good place to store spare bullets patches and powder.

I started on one once for the black powder season here but never got serious about it.

basicaly a inline barrel using a Shot gun primer slid through the trunion. HMMMM maybe ill do a black powder muzzle loader barrel for my switch barrel build to allow it to cover all hunting seasons. Might as well would not cost much

there is no reason a black powder round wont work in a AK there would be a ton crud from the powder but it would go bang for a while. getting the pressure high enough to cycle with out a huge port to get it to cycle would possable be a issue but im sure it could be done. .

Other than the novility Im not sure why any one would want to build one.

A muzzel loader in My state dont need a FFL to transfer :)
 
#12 ·
there is no reason a black powder round wont work in a AK there would be a ton crud from the powder but it would go bang for a while. getting the pressure high enough to cycle with out a huge port to get it to cycle would possable be a issue but im sure it could be done. .
I remember someone posting here I think, they said they loaded a round of x39 with black powder to see if it would work, they said it cycled and everything. I don't really doubt it, what with how freakin' huge the AK's gas port is... Probably wouldn't cycle for too long though, with how dirty BP is.
 
#11 ·
Norinco imported a handful of muzzle loading SKS right after the AW ban started. There are a couple of web sites describing them. I guess it shows even the faceless billions of Communist China can have a sense of humor...
 
#13 ·
You know, thinking about it, though the AK-47 itself would be a big step forward, the *bigger* step forward would be from examining its ammunition. Figure they'd be using corrosive milsurp ammo... that's potassium chlorate primers, very nearly the perfect priming compound - cheap, virtually insensitive to extremes of temperature, and doesn't degrade over time, like the old mercuric and some new non-lead, non-corrosive primers. The CSA wouldn't care about it being corrosive; all their primers were corrosive anyway. And the best thing is, the chlorate priming compound is simple enough that 1860s chemists could identify and duplicate it.

There had been nitrocellulose gunpowders before 1865, but they had been unstable and tended more to being explosives than propellants - the French had tried nitrated wood pulp, and the Swiss had tried some other stuff, but they weren't making much progress. The chemistry of a modern smokeless propellant isn't very complex, but the processes to making a reliable propellant are. Still, just *knowing* there was a solution would have been an enormous help.
 
#43 ·
In 1846, the first nitrocellulose was produced by accident, resulting in the cotton towel bursting into flames. Many tests, and many false starts followed. The first documented use as a propellant in firearms was in 1855 in Stanton NJ. Since the "inventor" did not realize that his propellant was 6 times more powerful than black powder, his initial experiments were, well, spectacular failures. Thank god for "an exceedingly long lanyard" in his words. It was not until 1886 that "guncotton" was "perfected" to point where it could be used effectively in firearms. I do not know of any production firearm (Muzzleloader)that was designed to use the new propellant. All were metallic cartridge designs. This was the age of Falling blocks, Rolling Blocks, and early bolt actions. Such was the power of the new propellant. It also happened to be so corrosive, and so damaging to firearms, that the increased interchangability of parts, assemblies, barrels, etc. became paramount to the effectiveness of any Army in the field. Thus began the ascension of Paul Mauser.....A quickly trained smith, operating out of a horse-drawn wagon could keep an entire battalion operating in the field for months. By way of comparison, once a muzzleloader failed, it was essentially trash. Barrels were commonly re-used for tripods to allow soldiers to suspend there cooking post over a fire.

So, Gun-cotton or other early smokeless powders did not really see any kind of widespread adoption until the 1880's. For fun someday, take apart any surplus .303 British cartridge. You will find them loaded with Nitro-cord. Really sticky, and really smelly. But also really sure-fire. I blew through 800 rounds of .303 that was originally manufactured in 1913. Not one misfire. This was in 1994. 81 years old. Very slow burning as well, the recoil took a moment to kind of build up...Spooky at first.
 
#14 ·
Darn, if I did not know better, someone would think you all are looking to get on a Armageddon reality show.:lol::lol::ak47:
 
#22 ·
I was thinking a color case hardened brass receiver with the trunnions srewed in with hand cut screws yeah and machined brass gas block what about an octagon barrel somehow? Maybe a flip up ladder sight of some sort for longer range shots
 
#25 ·
hey just thought of another variation, build as a cenfederate ak like said but as one that got traded away to american indians and decorated like rawhide wrapped butt stock and inlaid turqoise and silver in the wood maybe a cool friged roughout drop case lol eagle feathers hangin from where the sling is tied to the sting mounts basicly like a muj kyber type build only american indian style ;)
 
#27 · (Edited)
Another option for a finish would to be to brown it. Mix a thin paste from wood ash and urine. Clean (oil free) all parts to be treated just as you would to do a modern blue finish. Apply the ash/urine paste, wait 12-48 hours or more, remove paste, hand buff with oil and or wax and you have a nice browned oxidized finish. Keep oiled just as you would a blued finish. I have finished several black powder pistols this way. They still look great after 20+ years and you have a period finish. I'll try to get a picture of a derringer I did posted, probably be monday or tues. Got this idea out of a "History of Remington Arms" book that my old man gave me when I was a kid. Now if you really wanted to dress it up you could have to have a vernier tang site with a hooded front post to really make it impressive. Your second model could be a lever action AK.

Semper Paratus.
 
#44 ·
OK, I'll say it...AHHHGGGGHHHHH!!!

TOO MUCH INFO!!!!!

But still really cool to know. I didn't know exactly how the brown oxidation was done...Makes perfect sense now. Ash + Ammonia + Water + Salt...Pee Finish....Brilliant!!!
 
#28 ·
The problem I would see it having is in cycling.
Blackpowder is lower in power (per volume that is-it takes a LOT of it).
There would not be enough cycle power for the gas piston or spring.
Not from such a tiny cartridge loaded with black.
The spring and stuff would have to be equal to the ak-22.
Second-that thing would foul up and quit cycling within just a few shots. No kidding.
The gatling gun of that era, was only able to work, because of the many barrels and a non-self loading mechanism---in other words--you had to crank it.

Nice idea though!!!! I love thinking about how we could have won that war.


Even if this weapon would not cycle--and I'm not sure that it wouldn't, even if it were manually cycled to be loaded--it would have been a game changer in the Civil War. It would have loaded faster and when possessed by a company of solders, have more firepower than an entire division of muzzle loaders of that era.

It could have been built with the machine tools of that era quite easily.
Actually looking at an AK apart, it would have been easier to build than a Henry rifle or other lever/repeater of that era.

But with the gas port enlarged--and the piston size altered, it would have cycled quite easily, and it would have chopped down those evil damn Yankee like they should have been chopped down.

God bless General Lee.
God bless President Davis!

ST
 
#29 ·
It could have been built with the machine tools of that era quite easily.
That's precisely what makes the whole concept so interesting. It's an example of the sheer genius of the Kalashnikov design.

The USSR had never hurt for designers or engineers, but it was critically short of production equipment during the war. Designing weapons was no problem; making them was. For example, Simonov's SKS design is superior to the AK in almost every way... but it required a lot of machining and custom tooling to make the receiver and bolt. The Kalashnikov's components were smaller, simpler, and - this was the big thing - there are no close tolerances anywhere in the design. Headspace? Who cares? Just push the barrel in against the assembly gage, drill the hole, and drive a pin in. Precision cam tracks to unlock the bolt? Any angled slot buggered in with a dull endmill will do; the gas system doesn't care. Complex receiver forging with custom-designed finishing machinery? Just use a couple of small trunnions and stamp the receiver out of sheet metal. (some North Korean variants used a stamped rear trunnion, too!) You have a design that can be farmed out to a dozen different subcontractors with indifferent quality control, slapped together by old women, and still function in subzero ice storms or tropical mud.

Someone mentioned the LeMat revolver earlier in this thread. The LeMat goes all the way back to 1856, and it was at least as complicated as an AK-47.
 
#30 ·
There was a sci-fi story written years ago about some guy who invented a time machine, and then went back to the civil wars days with 1000 (or so) Ak47's--which he distributed to Lee's forces just before Gettysburg.

To say the least, they won.

If the AK in the Saiga version, modified to use 12 guage shotgun shell, works and cycles--so too would an AK in the 1860's with perhaps a .44 rimless round, and a 40 round magazine. A version of the Saiga comes in .410 gauge, and this is essentiall the same diameter of a .45.

As for the weapon fouling with black powder--yeah, perhaps after 1000 rounds or so--then it would need some cleaning. But I imagine it would fire as much as they needed it to work, before cleaning was required. A battle would be over in minutes with AK's... and there would not be all that marching around in columns and lines. Men would fight from concealment and cover and there would be quicker manuver possible.

ST
 
#31 ·
I have plans to do a muzzel loading AK just to piss off the DNR. Im going to do a .458 cal muzzel loader that will take smokeless powder like the savage smokless muzzelloaders. I think a auto loader in black powder would suck you would not be able to see much after the first shot due to the smoke the barrel would need to be very long to get any speed out of the round. and it would be very very dirty very very fast. Im not saying it would not shoot it would just be a pain in the ass. there have already been 45/70/s as well as 444 marlins as well as the 410 and up Sagias that could easly be loaded with black powder. some port work will likely be required.
 
#33 ·
so here is a link fron some body who did an AK with black powder ---

Here is the vid you've all been waiting for! The black powder AK torture test. I loaded 20 rounds of 7.62x39 with 32 grains of BP and topped it with a 155 grain gas checked cast bullet. The AK ate it all without a hiccup!! Accuracy was really good too. Wait until you see the smoke cloud coming out of the barrel. Soooooo...here is the vid...

Surplusrifle Forum • View topic - AK Torture


muttman
 
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