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gunco irregular
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is came out of the 44??? thread by Gunter. 1Biggun and I have been talking about a build for a while, and this past year the MI DNR changed the regulations so that a straight walled pistol caliber (.35"min) with a case no longer than 1.8" could be used in the shotgun zone. I used my 357AR rifle last year and was happy with how it performed, but I'm a big bore guy at heart. So after some back and forth I made a chamber reamer that would cut a chamber from 1.8" (for me) -2.25"(for 1Biggun). I had already picked up a sporterized 1891 mauser that needed rebarreled for $120 a while back. It seemed like a perfect match. Depending on the pressure you want to run the cartridge at, quickload shows that it should be about 2250fps out of an 18" barrel if run at 44k-psi or as high as 2465fps if run at 60k-psi. I'll be limiting this build to 44k-psi and most likely around 40k-psi which is actually better than what my .50 Hawkins will drive them with a sabot. Here's some pics so far of the donor gun, action wrench to remove the old 6.5 carcano barrel (yes some idiot fitted a Carcano barrel to this rifle even though the barrel was pitted inside and out), and making the reamer.
 

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gunco irregular
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Here's some of the Quickload guestimates. The case length and water capacities on QL were changed to match the formed cases. Once there is a gun to shoot them in I can spend the summer working up different loads like I did with the 357AR a couple years back. For forming brass I went with R-P 30-06 brass that were run though 44 Auto Mag Pistol case forming dies including neck reaming, annealed and run though an expander die.
 

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gunco irregular
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I already had 44mag and 444marlin dies, so after running the cases through the expander die they were just resized in a 444 marlin die. R-L 444 marlin, 444-1Biggun, 44 mag.
 

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gunco irregular
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I have a GM .429" 1:20" barrel waiting to be profiled, threaded and chambered. I'm debating making it an octagon or just following a basic stepped barrel similar to what the stock is inletted for. I'm leaning towards the octagon. The 1891 mauser has almost no gas handling features compared to other models. Later production ones added the wings on the bolt sleeve to block gas running straight down the left bolt rail into your face. I tracked down a original 1891 late version cocking piece with the wings. Otherwise you can change out the firing pin, cocking piece and bolt sleeve to a 93-96 type. Here pics of what those little wings do. In the bottom pic you can see how the shape of the bolt face directs gas down the left bolt rail which is wide open except for the ejector right to your face. In the two pictures above it you can see how the latter style bolt sleeve blocks off the bolt rails. I also plan on adding a vent to the receiver and bolt similar to a 1893. Can't hurt.
 

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gunco irregular
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The shorter 444-1bg rounds wouldn't feed through the original magazine so a filler block was needed. The mag spring is actually two flat springs that cantilever off of each other and the floorplate. So a new mag spring and follower will have to be made, but the magwell block is done. I left it with a bit more space forward of the XTP bullets for the pointed Flextip bullets that are now available. That's where it's at right now. Once I finish up a few barrels I can get back to work on it
 

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I cant wait for this to be alive .

It will be interesting to see how close the quick load is to what the round actually does .

Nice looking stock on that gun
 

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gunco irregular
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
It's a Fajen stock. I wish the comb wasn't quite so high. You have to press your cheek down on it hard in order to get a good sight picture. The replacement barrel will be thicker at the muzzle and will have a higher front sight from centerline, so perhaps it won't be an issue. I want to try to shoot it with the iron sites, but want to keep the option open for a scope. Otherwise the comb would get cut down enough for a comfortable cheek weld.
 

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3/6 Infantry
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How does this round compare diamention wise to the 44 marlin? 1/4- 3/8" shorter? The ballistics you mentioned are impressive. This is the building stuff we like to see here! Keep it coming.
 

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3/6 Infantry
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I've got alot of kin in Mississippi that would love this round. A few years ago MS. decided that a centerfire single shot rifle that fires a cartridge larger than .35 cal can be used in their primative hunt (AKA muzzle loader hunt to the rest of us). My nephew runs a NEF "topper" in .35 whelen. Lucky basterds!
 

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gunco irregular
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
How does this round compare diamention wise to the 44 marlin? 1/4- 3/8" shorter? The ballistics you mentioned are impressive. This is the building stuff we like to see here! Keep it coming.
I did the QL stuff based off of a 1.8" case length v/s a 444 Marlin at 2.225". 1Biggun wants to go a little longer since he isn't in a DNR restricted area. Once he gets his case length and volume figured out we can figure out the performance for his which should be better. The 444 marlin is limited to 51k-psi. If you run the 444 Marlin with a 18" barrel through QL along with 48.3gr of IMR4198 and a 240gr XTP you get just under 2300fps at 42K-psi which is the fastest loading in my Hornady book (24" barrel gets 2400 fps). Using different powders and the same 240gr XTP QL shows 2250 FPS at 44k-psi, 2360 FPS at 52K-PSI and 2450 FPS at 60K-psi. So it compares well to 444 marlin and can beat it if loaded in a strong action. Mine isn't so I'll be happy with middle of the road 444 marlin performance. I even did the calculations for a ar15 at 39k-psi and got around 2150 fps with an 18" barrel. I'd load it down in an ar15 though as I still don't trust how thin the barrel is at the minor diameter cut at the stub shoulder.
 

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3/6 Infantry
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Back when smle rifles were a dime a dozen I wanted to do a 444 marlin on one. Now they are almost collector pieces so I wont be doing that. A mosin nagant may end up being the donor I'm looking for.
 

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gunco irregular
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I've got alot of kin in Mississippi that would love this round. A few years ago MS. decided that a centerfire single shot rifle that fires a cartridge larger than .35 cal can be used in their primative hunt (AKA muzzle loader hunt to the rest of us). My nephew runs a NEF "topper" in .35 whelen. Lucky basterds!
It doesn't sound like you're limited to straight walled cases like many of us, but if you were I'd check out a 357 handi rifle rechambered to 357max and loaded to 55k psi. 35rem performance in a small package.

I have a 444 marlin and can only use it when I go to my sisters in WI or my buddies in MO....unless I find a spot up north.
 

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That Fajin stock is the same one the 03 Springfield I re-did recently has and it's a great stock for scoped rifles. My vote on barrel profile would be the octagon,,just to make it stand out a bit and make it something a bit different. Ya it will make a little bit more work, but not so much that it would be to bad really, and I think it would just be neater looking besides.

Hell with little as there is to build out there now, why not do something just a bit different from what you probably have already built anyways?? I've kinda gotten to that point that whatever I build, don't care if it's, guns, cars, whatever it may be. Whatever I do now, I'd like it to be just a bit different from what you'd normally see, even if it may take a bit more time,,,but what to hay, are you on a production schedule where time is really a issue anyways?

Plus when you're finished, you'll just be scratching your head trying to figure out what will be next!

I just think the round barrel really wouldn't set it off as anything really different or unique,,,which it really is . Sounds like a fun project though and I love that 444 Marlin cartridge too. I kick my ass I ever sold my lever gun in that caliber.

I'm not sure what you're looking at for sights, or if you've even planed that far yet ,but I have 2-3 sets Redfield or Lymann ??? micrometer type receiver sights that ,,if I'm not mistaken, are all Mauser profiled. You might even be able to talk me out of a set if that is the route you go,, Ya never know?? I sure wouldn't charge anywhere near what you see them on line for, just to see them get used instead of them just sitting in a box on the shelve. Kinda sounds like you're leaning open sights by the comment about the high comb. I have high ones and I think one set of lower ones too, I'd have to double check to be sure.

I Might have others options too ?? So Let me know what route you go and I'll scrummige around and see if I may have something you'd like, I still have several Mauser parts left kicking around here I could probably part with if you need something. And if you want something like just a standard Mauser sight ,no biggie,,I'll just give you a set,,,keep me posted when you decide what you're going to do, maybe I can help this project along.

A P.S. My stock is a bit different now I think about it, mine doesn't have the Sinsibel forearm ,,how ever ya spell it???
 

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wow interesting project my concern would be the metallurgy of the receiver, but thats me. I remember when these rifles where imported they were beautiful ( most where) I get nervous around two lug pre-98 mausers again thats me

no restrictions for me here in so. florida ( except on certain WMA's)
 

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Mole man is running this round at pretty low pressure an the bolt thrust will be well under the original pressures the rifles original round it fired was .
Yes any of these old rifles need to carefully evaluated to there strengths before using one . Any old rifle has its risks . An is a valid concern .

His reamer will cut a much deeper chamber than the 1.800" his round is an it gives the option of basically a 444 marlin rimless . the 444 marlin rimless was my original choice for a AK build when Gunter ( who stopped posting here for :( ) asked me about doing a shorter version that did not need a modified AK mag well length . So I /we switched to a shorter version. It is possible to run a little bit more case length in a AK/AR length mag an a slight gain could be seen . IMO setting the case length at just under 1.800 so it legal in a few states is the smart move here .
100FPS + or - is not going to make one lick of difference at the range this round is intended for ( under 300 yards ) on a deer or any thing else . The Leverlution bullet in 265 grain is designed for the speeds this round will easily produce an have been proven in the field .

This will also be a great subsonic round an also a great cast lead round if you want to shoot cheap Im sure reduced plinker loads will not be a issue either . Any thing that gets hit by a 265 grain pill going over 2,200 FPS is going to have a bad day .

My thought on a bolt action for myself are for a longer round run at 60,000 or higher . This would out perform a standard 444 marlin by a large margin an would out do a 45-70 in most cases . Basicaly a 444 marlin about 200 fps faster :)

There has been A AK barrel in 44 cal profiled here on the bench for about 5 years or so waiting to get chambered for this round ( 1.800" ) .

This version fits Molmans states restrictions perfectly . IMO the .430 bullet is the best compromise of speed / bullet weight an trajectory an case taper you can obtain in a 1.800 long straight case on deer .

This round should be doable on any 44 mag handi rifle if it was rechambered . As I recall that was gunters plan for testing the round . I have had my eye open for a 44 mag barrel for mine . Not sure the twist is optimum however on the H&R.
This would give MI hunters a cheap way to have a little more in there zones

The 45 raptor that has been made after this round was designed uses special brass( starline ) that's close but not really workable with common brass that uses a 45 cal bullet its designed for ar10 guns . Its basically a rimless 460 S&W It has zero taper an does not use a .458 rifle bullet but 45 pistol type bullets . the bullets it uses have a poorer BC's not that its really going to matter at 200 yards . Its not a bad round but I feel the 444 1BG will feed an extract better an be much cheaper to load an shoot. there are IMO better hunting bullets in the 44 cal than in the 45 although I have not looked at what the 460 S&W guys hunt with much.

Id love to see a tapered octagon barrel or even a straight octagon to round . but that is not just a bit more work its a lot more work an if you get it wrong the barrel is junk how ever If you can pull it off then it would really have a what would have to be a modern classic . I hate that term but what would be more descriptive than a early sporterised Mauser with a octagon barrel shooting a modern wildcat with big bore modern technology bullets meeting MI hunting regulations??

If you can pull it off Id think that rifle would be worth well over a grand to the right guy in the right state .
 

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gunco irregular
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Sprat, That is a concern for me as well and the reason that it will only see pressure under what is suitable for a small ring action. It made it through military service, and a second life as a sporter before I got it. The action seems in great shape and I'm sure whoever sporterized it cut up a nice looking rifle in a higher pressure cartridge (around 56k-psi for 7.65x53 mauser). The Argentine crest has been ground off and cold blued, the handle isn't as shiny as it once as, and most of the carbona blue has worn off of the ejector housing. I suspect it was rearsenaled at some point for being 120 years old and still having most of the bluing. By the "F" prefix ser# it was produced in 1893 at Loewe Surplusrifle Forum ? View topic - Dating M1891/M1909 Argentine Mausers. Dropping the pressure down to around 35k-Psi still gets you decent velocity around 2000-fps and depending on what powder I will be starting at least that low and working up.

Twa2471, I'm leaning towards a hooded front sight and a peep rear sight. It currently has an aluminum Williams peep sight on it and the stock is inletted for the sight base. Its base is aluminum and the anodizing is flaking off in some spots. I'd prefer a steel one eventually as long as they bolt up to the existing holes.
 

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Hummmm, I'll look through the base's I have to see what I may have, are you going to reuse the Williams? If so put up a pic and the model # of it and I'll see if I can match it up with a steel base or better condition aluminum one from what I have kicking around here. I have a few ramped fronts also but I can't remember just what I do have left now without digging, I know I also have some hooded globes with interchangeable apertures, but I don't think that's what you're looking for??? Right?

Let me know the specifics if you do use the Williams and I'll see if I can help you out. Remember,,I'm an old Mauser fan ,,so I've got lots of Mauser related stuff handy, especially sight stuff. So it's a good possibility I ,,may,,have exactly what your looking for, never know??

Oh BTW,,your receiver is the same radius as the Sweed Mausers isn't it? It's been a while sense my last small ring and I can't remember right now, but if I remember right, it is??
 

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Gunco Irregular
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My first rifle was a mint 1891 Mauser in 7.65. Back then cases were unobtainium; I had to buy the RCBS forming die and cut down .30-06 brass.

I reloaded a lot of ammo for that rifle... and I kept reloading it until the cases split down the sides or the case heads separated. Which took half a dozen loads... I didn't know, and didn't learn until *much* later, that the problem was the ammonia-based cleaner I was using attacked the brass and weakened it.

Anyway, I'm *quite* familiar with the gas-handling characteristics of the Model 1891. Plus I shoot left-handed.

Maybe a hundred times over a couple of years, I had a case fail and got a faceful of gas. While startling the first few times and annoying later, I didn't find the "problem" to be a big deal.

You could drill a hole in the receiver ring to relieve pressure at the source, and one in the bottom of the bolt to bleed gas out of the firing pin channel; it'd probably reduce the puff quite a bit.
 

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Gunco Irregular
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It's a Fajen stock. I wish the comb wasn't quite so high. You have to press your cheek down on it hard in order to get a good sight picture.
I have a big fat Charlie Brown head and I have that problem with the original military stock... your stock has lots of drop, which is unfashionable nowadays. I like that kind of stock because it means I don't have to roll my head to the side and look across the bridge of my nose to find the freakin' sights.

If the pad is too high a wood rasp and sanding block will do a clean job of removing the ugly lump of wood. If you add a scope later any reasonably low rings should keep it down within your normal cheek weld. As far as I'm concerned either a lot of shooters have heads shaped like a hatchet or the pads are a styling leftover from ancient times when scopes stood on two inch tall rings.

Other than the might-as-well-be-required-by-law Monte Carlo lump, that's a gorgeous stock! I used to think the Schnabel forends were peculiar looking, but they're grown on me over the years. I really like the feel of the one on my Remington Model 8.

I had to open up the barrel channel on my Enfield forend when I went from .303 to .45-70. I bought both of the small wood chisel sets Harbor Freight sells. I wound up using one particular chisel for almost everything. It took about eight hours total to open up the channel; I'm no kind of woodcarver and that was my first attempt at opening up a stock. It turned out to be a lot easier than I expected, though slow. I put a heavy coat of black ink on the barrel with a laundry marker, held the forend against it and gave it a whack, and then carved away the black spots. "Repeat until done." I was worried about winding up with a wavy edge at the top where the barrel goes in, but that turned out to be a complete non-issue.

I recommend taping some towels or bubble wrap on the stock when carving. I did most of my work at my desk, and because I'm clumsy I kept banging the stock against the desk and nearby objects while working on it. I'd get fixated on where I was working, turn it a little bit to get a better angle, and "clonk!"

This is going to be a schweet build...
 
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