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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
These internet Assault Weapons discussion boards invariably attract newbies or gun-owners with a little bit of warped enthusiasm who just can't get it out of their heads how neat it would be to convert their AK to full auto.

In discussions with people I meet, who are invariably new to guns, I keep hearing how easy it is to convert your AK to full auto by filing on this or that part.

I'm tired of it.

To manufacture an AK as a semi auto weapon, a different fire control group is used; a different bolt carrier is used; and the receiver is machined slightly differently. You as a civilian cannot legally find any way on earth to convert your lawfully-purchased semi-auto AK to full auto. Period. End of Story. I won't go into the laws here, but suffice it to say that if it wasn't already what is called a "fully transferable" full auto AK, dutifully registered as such by the Federal Government, then you can't own it. Deal with it.

Now, let's say you're one of those adventurous people who likes to go tell people that all you have to do is file down the disconnector so it won't grab the hammer and you have "instant full-auto".

Here's why that's not wise:

1. It's illegal. You will be decades older by the time you get out of Federal Prison for doing it. There is no parole in Federal Prison. Twenty Years is twenty years. I'm not saying that's the sentence you'll get, buy you understand my point. Firing more than one round with one pull of the trigger may be fun, but it's not worth being married to a guy covered with tattoos for several years.


2. It's dangerous. I deal a lot with gunsmiths; I read a lot of engineering literature on firearms. I understand how firearms work and don't work. I have repaired my own personally-owned AK's. I know what breaks them and what fixes them. Over the last ten years, I have also rubbed elbows with enough gunsmiths who have had to "fix" home hobbyists' misguided projects that I know enough not to EVER want to convert a semi-auto AK to full auto.

The AK-47 action is not "timed" . We all know about revolvers, and how they are "timed" so that the round is not fired until the cylinder has locked on a fresh chamber, and the chamber is lined up properly.

A full-auto AK-47 has an extra lever just forward of the hammer that holds the hammer back until the bolt is fully closed and locked. It also prevents the hammer from falling unless the round is fully seated in the chamber. This is to prevent the gun from firing "out of battery", and possibly blowing pieces of the firearm into your face. Because the AK action is not "timed", the hammer could very well fall too soon without this lever holding the hammer back until tripped by the bolt carrier.

This is why a full-auto AK has different parts: it requires a special hammer and a special bolt carrier to interact with this trip lever.

When an AK is manufactured in semi-auto only, the little lug on the bolt carrier that trips any full-auto lever is machined off. Plus, the hammer on a semi-auto only AK is machined not to allow that little trip lever to fit under the front of it; not to mention the fact that the receiver does not have the extra hole required for that trip lever to be installed.

Sometimes, manufacturers of semi-auto only AK's also machine off a little tab on the rear of the disconnector, and the corresponding tab on the safety lever that pushes the disconnector out of the way so it doesn't grab the hammer on a full-auto gun.

So, you, as the home gunsmith about to take his life in his hands, decides to "file" down something to make the gun full auto.

Assuming that when you file down the disconnector, the gun doesn't just stop firing at all as the hammer follows the bolt carrier into battery, you have just created a bomb patiently waiting to blow your face off.

Since the AK action is not "timed", your little file job has created a situation where there is NOTHING to prevent that round from firing as soon as the bolt face touches it. The hammer falls with the bolt carrier, and so will detonate the primer as soon as it can, whether the round is chambered and the bolt is closed or not. So instead of that full auto AK you always wanted, you now have one that will eventually kill or injure you or bystanders the first time it fires a round out of battery.

That is why you don't want to illegally convert your semi-auto AK to full auto.

__________________________________________

On a similar subject, those of you who read the above carefully realize that there is nothing to prevent a semi-auto AK from firing out of battery either. This is technically true, but the tolerances of the AK-47 are loose enough that I have literally never heard of an AK firing out of battery (I'm not saying it's never happened--just that I've never heard of it).

The lack of "timing" is not an issue, since "timing" only applies to full-auto fire. The disconnector will hold the hammer on a semi-auto AK until you let go of it, and it is humanly impossible to let go of the disconnector faster than the action can cycle. So this is not a problem.

The one worry might be that if your AK gets so full of crud that the bolt won't close properly, then you might have a problem with firing out of battery, but I have literally fired hundreds of rounds through AK's without cleaning them, and I've never had a problem. Suffice it to say; clean your weapon occasionally, and if you drop it in goop so that the bolt lugs might be gunked up enough to prevent the bolt from closing, then your gun needs a thorough cleaning before you try to fire it again. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

:smile:
 

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I'll kick in even more reasons if I may.
1) Full auto is damned hard to control. It takes practice. Where you gonna practice? Every time you let rip you gotta worry about the weapon detonating on you, or the cops showing up.
2) Full auto is expensive man! It don't take long to go thru a case of 1000 at full auto.
3) Full auto is hard on weapons. Yes, they were designed to be fired full auto (with full auto parts installed you understand), but that doesn't mean it's necesarily good for them.
4) By converting your semi to full auto, you make the jobs of the Antis and the Bradys that much easier.
5) If you get caught....No, WHEN you get caught, as ZZ said, you will spend a great deal of time incarcerated in a Federal Correctional Facility. For the rest of your life, you are a FELON which means you will never, ever, ever be able to own or even be in the same room as a gun. Period.

IT'S JUST NOT WORTH IT.
If you must waste ammo, learn to bump. Bumping is just about as accurate as full auto, and it's legal baby!
 

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this is a great post guys thanks for the time spent , you make many good points. for me compliance is just part of the hobby :smile:
 

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I remember my weapons instructor telling us that if you give him one round and you have a full clip, he fires on semi and you fire on full auto.....he will kill you!!!

He showed us by using two targets. He shot on one, we got to try on the other, distances varied from 100 to 150 meters. Guess what, we all died. Not that we weren't shooters but the weapon just jerked around to much for accurate fire. We did have hits on the target but they weren't solid body hits. His were all center torso hits. I will say, that they let us "PLAY" with full auto till we got tired of it and showed us just how much ammo you went through with so little results.

Also, like stated above full auto attracts attention. The ONLY time I might want full auto is when conducting house to house/room to room searches and then it would have to be a smaller caliber than 7.63x39, maybe 9mm H&K sub-gun. But since I don't do that kind of stuff I don't need full auto at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Toten Kopf said:
I remember my weapons instructor telling us that if you give him one round and you have a full clip, he fires on semi and you fire on full auto.....he will kill you!!!
I've never been in the military, but am I mistaken in thinking that full-auto has ONE tactical use: if you get ambushed you open up on full auto just long enough for the enemy to dive for cover, then you switch to semi-auto for the rest of the battle?
 

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This is a great line of posting. I think we will make it a sticky for a while.

Liek Zoid I have seen many newbie posts on many boards addressing filing this or even putting a tywrap inn th eright place to achieve F/A.

It's bad mojo to jury rig a rifle to do these things in many ways!
 

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ZOID ZODIAN said:
I've never been in the military, but am I mistaken in thinking that full-auto has ONE tactical use: if you get ambushed you open up on full auto just long enough for the enemy to dive for cover, then you switch to semi-auto for the rest of the battle?
I've been in this situation and beleive me a well trained unit dosen't react to the "MAD MINUTE" by blazing away at what? Pray and spray just wastes ammo and in the field you don't carry that much ammo to just start spraying away at some unseen enemy.

And do you think that the enemy is going to "DIVE" for cover when he is the one to start the ambush? I'm not saying that what you have said hasn't been done but most small tactical units just can't afford to blaze away.

I beleive that most combat rifles have the full auto feature to permit sustained fire at one point (that's what my instructor told us). Not to move the weapon back and forth like in the movies. When you take into account the cyclic rate of the weapon and the traverse speed you have BIG HOLES where the enemy will be untouched. I can only speak for what I have experianced, others may have different views or experiences.

As a final note: Only Hits Count

"It Takes A Stong Man To Be Kind", Sgt Nathan Wilson, 5th SFG (1970)
 

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Toten Kopf said:
I've been in this situation and beleive me a well trained unit dosen't react to the "MAD MINUTE" by blazing away at what? Pray and spray just wastes ammo and in the field you don't carry that much ammo to just start spraying away at some unseen enemy.

And do you think that the enemy is going to "DIVE" for cover when he is the one to start the ambush? I'm not saying that what you have said hasn't been done but most small tactical units just can't afford to blaze away.

I beleive that most combat rifles have the full auto feature to permit sustained fire at one point (that's what my instructor told us). Not to move the weapon back and forth like in the movies. When you take into account the cyclic rate of the weapon and the traverse speed you have BIG HOLES where the enemy will be untouched. I can only speak for what I have experianced, others may have different views or experiences.

As a final note: Only Hits Count

"It Takes A Stong Man To Be Kind", Sgt Nathan Wilson, 5th SFG (1970)
All that being the reason the US military strives to teach every soldier marksmanship. Only well placed shots count as was stated. The SAW gunners are the ones that provide supressive fire in SHTF situations. Riflemen need to be always analysing the situation and finding targets while trying not to get killed.
 

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I had a chance to fire a friends Ruger AC556 (the FA Mini14). On three round bursts, with 5.56mm ammo I was on with the first round only.

Real - legal - FA is now out of sight for this boy. The cheapest, most common FA guns range upward from $3500 now. The ammo costs really add up.

I'll take semi-auto with the occasional bump fire.

I only wish the range nazis would let me shoot something other than a black circle.

An old Volkswagen or TV would be nice.
 

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peice of cake

making a full auto AK is a peice of cake. i could do it in 30 minutes with a hand drill. type 7 SOT do it all the time. the hole (pun intended) question of select fire centers around that third axis pin, and the hole you have to drill to insert it. it supports a disconnector, reset coil spring, and the shepard's crook which is integral to the spring.

many kits on the market right now have all of the parts, and could be built legally by an SOT as a full auto on any comercial or homebent receiver. some aftermarket manufacturers are making semi only FCG, and carriers, but the original ones work fine on semi.

i am not advocating that anyone violate federal or local law on any account, but do feel a need to note that most gun boards have at least one expert on hand who will do his best to shroud the entire question in mystery.

of course, if i was hunting big game on the african plain, i would find a decent watering hole, set up a machan (elevated blind), and just wait. some defiant lion would surely walk by after awhile and wake me with a challenging roar.

who pays for this and all of the other gun boards on the net, anyway? nothing is free, unless it's bought with tax dollars.
 

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If your unlucky enough to get caught in an ambush-and your lucky enough to survive the initial "fire" your only chance is to assault INTO the ambush-get fire superiority/ie full auto fire, and fight through and out of the "kill zone". If you go to ground in the "kill zone" you'll die there. On ambushes rule of thumb is once you think everyone is dead in the "kill zone" you rake it for 30 seconds with a GPMG if you have one,or all member of the ambush team fire into the "zone" to make sure everyone is dead. Your pre-arrranged "search team" enters the "kill zone" and ensures everyone is dead-checks for anything of military interest/value among the dead.Full auto is used from start to finish in an ambush-the only time semi-auto may be used is among the search team making sure everyone is dead-after its all over.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
A NOTE ABOUT "BUMP-FIRING" and "HELLSTORM"-type TRIGGER MANIPULATORS

I'll be the first to admit I'm basing my assessment of bump-firing by watching others do it and by examining their weapons' fire control groups afterwards. I have never really been able to bump fire successfully. Furthermore, if I understand bump-firing correctly, you are basically using your finger in the same way you would use a trigger manipulator like the "Hellstorm" system. Both bump-firing and the Hellstorm-type system give the appearance of full-auto fire in a semi-auto firearm by rapid manipulation of the trigger so as to limit the amount of time the hammer is held by the trigger and disconnector.

I could be wrong, but I lean toward bump-firing being unsafe for the same reason that it is unsafe to convert your gun to full-auto by filing down the disconnector. Since the AK action is not "timed", as stated above, by tampering with the disconnector or trigger's "grabbing" of the hammer during bump-firing, you are potentially toying with a timing problem that could eventually fire the gun out of battery. Since a semi-auto AK does not have the extra auto-sear lever that also prevents the hammer from falling until the bolt is closed and locked, by bump-firing you are potentially causing the hammer to release prematurely, detonating the round before the action cycles completely.

When the gun fires semi-auto, there is no way that your finger can release the trigger faster than the action can cycle and a new round can chamber and the bolt lock. Even when employing double and triple taps, you still cannot manipulate the FCG faster than the action can cycle completely. This is how the rifle is SUPPOSED TO function if all parts are interacting correctly. When a semi-auto fire control group is functioning properly, there are a number of natural "safeties" in operation: the gun cannot fire another round without releasing the trigger (gives time for the bolt to close and lock), and the trigger holds the cocked hammer until released (prevents the hammer dropping during the cocking sequence which would make a gun fire on full-auto until empty).

When you bump-fire, however, you are to a certain extent "cheating" the cycling of the action by not allowing the FCG to do its job normally. In essence, you are defeating the purpose of the disconnector and trigger hooks by keeping the trigger in motion.

I have made the following observations:

Just from my experience with a handful of rifles and different shooters, it appears that NOT ALL AK's can be bump-fired. The most successful bump firing I have seen has been in Romanian SAR's that retain their Century FCG's.
Century FCG's are notorious for questionable engagement of the trigger and disconnector surfaces that grab the hammer. The rifles I have examined that seem to bump-fire the best are those in which the trigger and disconnector BARELY grab and hold the hammer during the recoil stroke (disconnector) and trigger release (trigger hook).

In my experience with AK FCG's, the trigger and disconnector should both grab the hammer at their respective engagement points with approximately 1/16" of engagement surface between them. In guns that have successfully bump-fired, the engagement surfaces are often as little as one-third of that. IN OTHER WORDS, THE RIFLES THAT BUMP-FIRE THE BEST ARE THE ONES WITH FIRE CONTROL GROUPS THAT HAVE A MARGINAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THEIR ENGAGEMENT SURFACES TO BEGIN WITH. Indeed, on one rifle, when I let off the trigger slowly and the disconnector released the hammer, the hammer was not grabbed by the trigger hook because the two were not "lined up"! The hammer fell and hit the back of the bolt just because I let off the disconnector/trigger engagement slowly enough that the trigger hook was not positioned properly to grab the hammer! On this rifle, only when I let off the trigger rapidly was the trigger hook positioned over the hammer fast enough to "grab" it!

It seems that bump-firing depends upon a poor relationship between fire control parts!

I have unsuccessfully tried to bump-fire a Bulgarian AK with a quality fire control group. I have gotten others to try bump-firing AK's with quality FCG's. I'm defining a quality FCG as having very positive and definite interaction between the hammer and the trigger and disconnector, i.e., right around the 1/16" interaction between engagement surfaces. A rifle in which the trigger and disconnector barely grab the hammer (as on a Romanian AK with a Century FCG) is basically being bump-fired by the shooter "jarring" the hammer loose from where the trigger and/or disconnector just barely grab the hammer in the first place. To cite an analogy: it is easier to knock a glass off the EDGE of a shelf than if the glass is in the middle. When you bump fire, you are repeatedly knocking the hammer off the "edge" of the trigger and disconnector, because if the parts were positioned in the more proper "middle", bump-firing would probably not be possible, or would at least require a mechanical trigger manipulator that is capable of more force than your finger.

I cite as evidence one of my fellow shooters: when his SAR-1 had the Century FCG, he was able to bump-fire at will; when he switched to a Red Star adjustable FCG, the rifle would no longer bump-fire! Clearly, the difference in interaction between the parts of the two FCG's played a critical role!

In a similar way, being that a trigger manipulator such as the Hellstorm is a mechanical device generally made of metal, it will necessarily exercise more force in "jarring" the hammer loose from the trigger/disconnector engaging surfaces than you could do with just your finger. Most trigger manipulators I have seen in action appear to work in nearly all weapons. As most manufacturers of these trigger manipulators claim that their product will work on most weapons, I can only conclude that these products are simply better at defeating the function of your semi-auto fire control parts than your mere finger would be. Your finger might only have the strength to bump-fire in a rifle with poorly-fitted FCG parts, whereas a metal mechanical device is capable of exerting the extra force necessary to defeat even properly fitted FCG's.

I am not a firearms engineer, but I understand a few things about firearms in general, and AK's in particular. In my opinion, when you bump fire you are defeating the natural "safeties" built into a semi-auto fire control group, and so are potentially creating a dangerous situation in which the timing of the gun's firing sequence can be just out of whack enough to fire the gun out of battery. Similarly, I am assessing trigger manipulators such as the Hellstorm system to be mechanical aids to bump-firing, but they are accomplishing the same dangerous tampering with the fire control sequence as bump-firing with your finger.

If any manufacturer of a mechanical trigger manipulator can cite good evidence as to why his product does not create an unsafe defeating of an FCG's function, then I invite that person to post his evidence here...

This forum is all about learning, and we are all interested in the facts...

In my final assessment, I am willing to concede that the jury may still be out on bump-firing and trigger manipulators, but I lean toward both being as unsafe as any other attempt to gain full-auto fire in a semi-auto AK...
 

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Damn Zoid! Your killing off my my fun! :D

I had thought about the timing issue myself and wondered how safe bumping is? I always say a little prayer before bumping just in case:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
SangRun Hunter said:
Damn Zoid! Your killing off my my fun! :D

I had thought about the timing issue myself and wondered how safe bumping is? I always say a little prayer before bumping just in case:wink:

That is one reason why my assessment of bump-firing is so long, and why I'm quick to point out that it's based on my observations with a handful of rifles.

Believe me, I'm not out to spoil anybody's fun! Any firearm can explode under the right (wrong?) conditions just because something goes horribly wrong with the ammo, etc., and not because of something the shooter is doing.

I simply thought it worth mentioning that the practice of bump-firing seems suspiciously unsafe.

"My face may be ugly, but it's the only one I've got" is my safety motto.
 

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bumping is a manipulation of physics, and nothing more.

again, you cloud the issue with excess verbage and speculation. perhaps you would do well to study more and speak less.

forward tension on the handguard with the left hand draws the gun forward against a static trigger finger while recoil drives it backward to disengage. the cycle repeats faster than a person can pull a trigger. the balance of tension and recoil is the key. one of the best guns i have for bumping is a polish with the original trigger group. the polish guns are of the highest quality and finest machining in all respects. hungarian trigger groups work just as well, and i have been able to rip a 30 rd mag out of a high cap converted romanian wasr10 with the original trigger group, but not after it was changed to meet the 10 parts rule.

AK 47 are designed to cycle at 650 cpm. bump firing occurs at about 400 cpm for most people. the difference is audible. out of battery firing is not possible at this reduced rate any more than in semi. guns designed select are actually more reliable at cyclic than in semi. out of battery firing is almost invariably related to a stuck firing pin. these stick if they are overgreased with congealed oil. take care of your gun, and you will have no problems. the occasional kaboom that occurs in battery is almost always with reloads. shoot steel case russian stuff like bear, and wolf.

politely stated, zoid, you are like many AK "experts" i've recently run into. mostly bull.
 

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Thanks for this posting

Thanks for writing this; this is one subject that comes up every time I talk about building my own AK. (may I copy this to give to others?) I personally have a keen desire to stay free and don?t even want any full auto parts in my possession. Assembling an AK is still in the talking stage and this still comes up, how stupid can people be to risk going to jail for the thrill of looking like some a-hole in a TV movie. Spend the money and go to Knob Creek and get it out of your system. Yes it?s a thrill, but not worth time in jail. Personally I can?t afford the ?Time? or the ammo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
justashooter said:
again, you cloud the issue with excess verbage and speculation. perhaps you would do well to study more and speak less.

politely stated, zoid, you are like many AK "experts" i've recently run into. mostly bull.
I openly stated that my post on bump fire was based on my observations, and that I invited anyone with better information to come forward and share it. This and other forums are about the free exchange of ideas. I am the first to admit that I don't know everything, and you make many good points.

If indeed bump-firing is simply a form of fast semi-auto fire and the action still has time to close before each shot is fired, then it should be considered as safe as any other semi-auto fire.

I think it would have been more useful to all if you had used the rest of your post to go into more detail about how the balance of tension and recoil work instead of simply using your space to attack my credibility. Usually, when people make accusations, they see guilt in everyone else for what they do themselves, and I believe that this is the case here.

I believe that every single one of us can learn things from these boards as well as contribute to them, and attacking someone just because you disagree with them is not only childish, but it serves to make one suspicious of YOUR credibility.

I believe that your answer is, in fact, a good one for the most part. You state that you own Polish and Hungarian AK's with machining of the highest quality. Do the fire control parts also have an interrelationship of the highest quality? Would you give us a more detailed explanation of the relationship between balance and recoil?

You are correct in your assessment that out of battery fire is sometimes due to sticky firing pins, but there are many, many other potential causes. My earlier assessment of timing problems is in fact, correct, and I draw my information on this matter from sources besides my own "speculation."

(I am actively searching my library for which articles mention the timing problem; if I find them I will quote them at a later date).

Judging by your first post on this thread about how easy it is to convert an AK to full auto, plus the ever-increasing hostility of your tone, I suspect the truth is that I have struck a nerve by providing you with that little seed of doubt that your dream of full auto is unsafe or a "no-no." It is true what you say about a type 7 SOT, but that is beside the point. This thread is not meant to be a criticism of anyone properly trained and licensed to convert an AK to full auto. It is meant to address those individuals who seek to do it illegally and without the proper know-how. Have I struck a nerve there also, justashooter?

As for my excess verbage: no one held a gun to your head and forced you to read my thread. I wrote what I wrote, and I welcome honest and polite discussions and even disagreements. That is what these forums are all about. For persons such as you who find long threads difficult to follow, I would suggest you stick to shorter ones in the future.

As to the suggestion that I spend more time studying, this is good advice for anyone; I suggest that you too spend more time studying, particularly with regards to the fundamentals of spelling and grammar.

Your thoughts on building a certain kind of blind to wait for a roaring lion are interesting as well; there seems to be no shortage of "clouding things in mystery", for which you accused me. Just what does this have to do with a thread dealing with full-auto anyway?

Perhaps you should go to Africa to hunt lions and let someone who knows how to capitalize the first word at the beginning of a sentence type your future replies for you. That way you can remain a private fool instead of one whose ignorance has just become a public spectacle on the internet.
 

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Geezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

I thought that we were getting away from this kind of response to a post!

justashooter.......I feel that you could have made your point without all the sarcasium. Whether you bump, shoot full auto or what ever, someone posting their observations/concerns is no reason to create hostilities and as a reader I see your post as hostile. Providing your response the way you did puts me on edge. Yeah, I don't have to respond, I can just read and let it go but I won't, and didn't.

Just chill out a little......

There are enough problems in our sport without creating more.
 
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