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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am dumbfounded with this whole Humvee & armor story.

It reminds me of the bumper sticker that says something like "Ignore the Propaganda. Believe What You See."

The Humvees are being beefed up with armor plate here in Cincinnati (Fairfield) by a well respected armoring company that has been doing that kind of work for years.

I have personally seen this being done now for just about a year. I can't recall the production numbers, but they were really high and keep getting higher. The place looks like a military base. I think they are also upgrading the electronics.

I suppose someone might say that this should have been done years ago but to say that the problem was not or is not being addressed is an outright lie. I know what I saw and what I see....I posted on my visit there many months ago on the other gun board.

Also, anyone in the steel business who has tried to buy T-1 plate in the last year knows that it is tough to get and very pricey even if you can get it because the DOD bought it all up for the Humvee project.
 

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My former guard unit is currently in Iraq, and has been there for a couple months. We just had a whiner home on a weeks leave that called a radio talk show that complained that there hummers had not been "up armored" yet, and that only about 5 out of over 20 in his battery (leads me to beleive he was in the HQ battery) had been armored with scrap plate.
I would like to tell him to quit whining. There are alot of other forward units that have not yet gotten those vehicles, who have been there longer.
I know the armoring of the hummers is going as quickly as it can, and I have no doubt that the troops will get them as quickly as they become available. As Rummie said, you go with what you have, not neccessarily what you need. The troops that entered WWII and Vietnam were not properly equipped for every situation either. They got new equiptment as it was developed and became available.
I understand everyone is concerned about their safety, and pray myself for them. But some things just take time to get to where its needed.
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
This whole thing reminds me a bit of the ripping on the M-16 in Viet Nam.

A bit of truth perhaps, but used for political purposes and not true concern for the fighting troops.
 

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I had to laugh last night when Brian Williams lamented last night on NBC News that with all the "problems" with getting the up armored HUMMV's that the US sure isn't like the US that fought in WWII.

I would've laughed in his face and told him, "yeah, because then we didn't have a negative, anti-US media who made a huge story everytime one soldier gets killed". Hell, if we had the namby pamby, leftist socialist crowd that we have now in the US, and the anti-US media we would've been out of that war by late '42, early '43. We lost something like 38 guys in the entire Fallujah offensive, that went on for two or three weeks.....what would they have done in WWII when we could loose 38 guys in a second during a battle, battles where we had thousands of dead in one day, like D-Day?

Hell, by the time Midway happened we were down to 3 carriers in the Pacific, and they were all tapped for Midway....had things gone the other way, we could've been left with 0 carriers in the Pacific, and a pretty open road for the Japanese to march to the West coast.

There is a lag time in war...we didn't really start getting the extra carriers into the Pacific until late 43 and into 44. Those pictures you see with 6 or 7 Essex class carriers and several "jeep" carriers all anchored together didn't happen until after almost THREE years of all out war. The Marines went ashore at Guadalcanal with '03's from WWI....and M1917A1 helmets were still fairly wide spread into 1942. Prior to the war our boys trained with wooden machine guns, and cars with signs on them that said "Tank". No one wants to spend money on defense during the peace, and people bitch when it takes a little time to gear up and get production going in a war.

Now, if they would've have been cranking millions of dollars into up-armoring HUMMV's very early on, and things went a lot smoother in Iraq, and we were basically out 6 months ago, people would've been bitching that we spent all that money on armor we didn't need. With the press and the left, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't, no matter what. Anything to blacken the US' and the rights eye.
 

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I hope they are using something a little harder than T-1 steel..my AR shoots right through 3/8 inch....
 

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Cephus said:
And in korea we didn't know that the chinese would get involved or that the cold weather gear was inadiquit..

I know this is nit-picking but you are only half right.

The cold weather gear was MacArthur's blunder. You see, he had this tremendous ego and went and told everyone that he'd have North Korea licked by the time the leaves started falling. Well, he actually believed his own bullshit, because he never ordered up any winter gear. Kinda reminds you of another Ego-maniac who tried to start a land war in Asia a few years before w/o proper winter equipment, eh?

:cold:
 

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In the factory where I used to work (Catapiller sub-contractor) they now do humvee conversions.
They install the armor and install 12k pound winches.

Same sub-contractor, just got a new contract.
Kinda wish I still worked there so I could drive a Humvee in the back field......
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
THE FACTS ON HUMVEE ARMOR
Hundredpercenter News ^ | Dec. 13, 2004 | Unknown

Thursday, Lieutenant General R. Steven Whitcomb,Commander, Third Army "Patton's Own," and Coalition Forces Land Component Command, answered some questions, regarding the armoring of vehicles in Iraq, including humvess.

These are some of the facts the three star General shared with the press:

"Congress has provided in the neighborhood of about $1.2 billion since last year strictly to armor our vehicles"

"Up-armored humvees... is a vehicle that is produced in a factory back in the United States and it essentially gives you protection, both glass and on the armament on the side, front, rear, sides, top and bottom. If you'll think of a protection in a bubble, that's kind of what the level-one up- armored humvee gives you."

"Back in August of 2003, we were producing about 30 of those vehicles a month. We're in the category now of over 400 per month being produced. The requirement that we've got from Multinational Corps Iraq and Multinational Force Iraq, General Casey and General Tom Metz, are for about 8,100 up-armored humvees. We've provided a little under 6,000 up-armored humvees to the force to date."

(Started using) "add-on kits that we might be able to produce that gave that vehicle additional protection.We call that level-two armor, and it's better known probably most places as add-on armor. It is factory produced, so it's built under controlled conditions, and then it's either -- can be put on back in the states. But we've got 10 sites here in the theater, a couple here in Kuwait, and eight sites up in Iraq itself where we can bolt on, add this armor to existing unarmored vehicles. It gives you protection front, rear and sides, glass. It does not give protection at the top or at the bottom of the vehicle. So it gives you better than what you have with no protection on a humvee, but not quite the level-one protection."

"We looked at a stop-gap measure, a bridge, if you will, till we got the factory-produced level two and the level one protection for our vehicles, and that's what we call level-three hardening.(It consists of) taking steel plates that have been approved, make sure that they've got the type of minimal protection. Our real focus for the level-three armor is not the humvees, it's really the series of trucks that the Army uses in combat operations."

"Right now...we've got about 30,000 wheeled vehicles in our theater -- in Iraq and Afghanistan and other areas." level one, about 6,000 vehicles; level two, about 10,000 vehicles; almost 4,500 vehicles that have the level- three protection 8,000 (vehicles) do not have some type of armor protection on them.

"Of those vehicles that don't, some number of them are things like tool trucks, communication vans or vehicles that don't leave the base camp. In other words, they're trucked up into Iraq -- or in cases before what we're doing now, were driven up into Iraq -- and they go onto a base camp, and that's where they spend most of their time."

"The humvee was a vehicle that was not designed to afford armor protection, nor were most of our trucks. They were designed as cargo carriers. The only up-armored humvees, the high-end ones, we had were for our military police forces. They were not for use by -- as we see them used today with the numbers of forces."

"Add-on armoring runs anywhere from about a thousand pounds of steel plating up to about 4,000 pounds of additional weight. So a lot of our vehicles, as you point out, are not designed -- their engines aren't designed to carry perhaps an additional ton of weight, the suspension and the transmission."

"I am not seeing constraints on resources that are -- allow us to do that, with the exception of, as I say, level one and -- primarily because you're producing vehicles and a certain amount of law of physics is involved here. It's not necessarily just money; it's a production capacity to be able to build more."

"When you combine the 6,000 and the almost 10,000, we're in relatively good shape humvee- wise."

"The other thing that we've got -- and I won't talk about it because it is very sensitive -- is we're leveraging technology, how to detect where IEDs are, who's using them, how they're being set off and those kinds of things so we could go out there early and kill those guys before they're able to execute."

Regarding the soldier who asked Secretary Rumsfeld the armor question, General Whitcomb said: "What I think Specialist Wilson(soldier that popped the humvee question on Rumsfeld) was probably talking about is going through a facility that we've got that takes vehicles of two types; one, it takes vehicles that have been hit in combat and can't be fixed in Iraq and we bring them back here into Kuwait and we either fix them or we take parts off them that we can use. And some of those parts may, in fact, be the level-three armor, the steel plating that we either take off and put into stacks that we'll reuse, or that my suspicion -- and it's a suspicion only -- is that Specialist Wilson and his crew came in and found a vehicle or found some of that stuff and was taking it to add on to their vehicles."

SOURCE: (U.S. Department of Defense)

Here some other facts, compiled from various sources:

Today 77% of Humvees in Iraq are armored

9,386 armor kits shipped to Iraq

9,143 have been installed (97%)

Armor Holdings (AH:NYSE) said it could boost its output of "up-armored" Humvees by as much as 22 percent per month to 550 from 450 now.

The cost of installing the Humvee armor at the factory is $58,000 a vehicle.
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
S.2401

Department of Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2005



SEC. 112. UP-ARMORED HIGH MOBILITY MULTI-PURPOSE WHEELED VEHICLES OR WHEELED VEHICLE BALLISTIC ADD-ON ARMOR PROTECTION.

(a) AMOUNT- Of the amount authorized to be appropriated for the Army for fiscal year 2005 for other procurement under section 101(5), $610,000,000 shall be available for both of the purposes described in subsection (b) and may be used for either or both of such purposes.

(b) PURPOSES- The purposes referred to in subsection (a) are as follows:

(1) The procurement of up-armored high mobility multi-purpose wheeled vehicles at a rate up to 450 such vehicles each month.

(2) The procurement of wheeled vehicle ballistic add-on armor protection.

(c) ALLOCATION BY SECRETARY OF THE ARMY- (1) The Secretary of the Army shall allocate the amount available under subsection (a) between the two purposes set forth in subsection (b) as the Secretary determines appropriate to meet the requirements of the Army.

(2) Not later than 15 days before making an allocation under paragraph (1), the Secretary shall transmit a notification of the proposed allocation to the congressional defense committees.

(d) PROHIBITION ON USE FOR OTHER PURPOSES- The amount available under subsection (a) may not be used for any purpose other than a purpose specified in subsection (b).
 

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I figure you've got to go to war with the Secretary of Defense you have, not the Secretary of Defense you wish you had.
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Well, George Marshall is dead and perhaps so is the will of the American people.

Rummy is doing about as well as the populace will allow.
 

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Hell, columnist and writer Carl Zinsmeister reported back last year that our Hummers were getting armor upgrades in Iraq too! We had taken over a steel plant and put Iraqis back to work making and affixing plates to Hummers in country while being supervised by American engineers and soldiers.

I don't get it either? I see the Hummers on flatbed trucks leaving the place Custer was talking about with new plate and I see them on the semi trucks going down 75 often. I see them on railroad cars too. This has been going on for sometime.

I saw a story on the Hitler channel about the Sherman tank and D-day. This oldtimer said they sent 30 Shermans up the road in France after some Tigers that were holding up the advance. I think he said 1 came back after a couple of hours. The Shermans were considered death traps against the German armor for good reason.

Hummers have to be a better option than the old jeeps?

On another note I wonder how many Strykers are deployed in Iraq? They seem to be the ticket to a lot of the RPG issues.
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Sang, there is a second facility in Fairfield, too. After new plating, they are getting some sort of new electronics package. They would not tell me what it is when I was there.
 

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SangRun Hunter said:
...I saw a story on the Hitler channel about the Sherman tank and D-day. This oldtimer said they sent 30 Shermans up the road in France after some Tigers that were holding up the advance. I think he said 1 came back after a couple of hours. The Shermans were considered death traps against the German armor for good reason....
Yep, sort of an infamous example. I guess we had figured, correctly, that so long as we could manufacture Shermans quicker than the Germans could destroy them we'd win.

I'd found myself thinking of the Rhinocerous model Sherman, analagoous field-expedient deal: The higher-ups hadn't adequately planned for conditions in the field, and the American tanks couldn't get through the hedgerows in Normandy. An American sergeant came up with the idea of welding prongs onto the front of a tank so it would dig into a hedgerow instead of riding up over it. Worked.

I do, however, think that 18 months into the Iraqi occupation this demonstrates some really lousy planning. No need to demonize the Bush Administration, no need to excuse it, either: They could have done better, and hopefully they will.
 

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"Although we are winning and it's the end of the third quarter, things will look different Monday morning".
Johnny Unitus, Baltimore Colts
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
gunnysmith said:
"Although we are winning and it's the end of the third quarter, things will look different Monday morning".
Johnny Unitus, Baltimore Colts
Especially to Monday morning quarterbacks.
 
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