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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is some horrible stuff for the government to subsidize. I am an Eagle Scout and I can tell you the amount of religion involved is de minimis. It is simply not the thrust of the program.

Boy Scout Oath, Law, Motto, and Slogan

Scout Oath (or Promise)
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Scout Law
TRUSTWORTHY
A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.
LOYAL
A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation.
HELPFUL
A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward.
FRIENDLY
A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.
COURTEOUS
A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.
KIND
A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.
OBEDIENT
A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.
CHEERFUL
A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.
THRIFTY
A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
BRAVE
A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him.
CLEAN
A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.
REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

Scout Motto
Be Prepared

Scout Slogan
Do a good turn daily

The Outdoor Code
As an American, I will do my best to:

Be clean in my outdoor manners

Be careful with fire

Be considerate in the outdoors, and

Be conservation minded.
 

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Mystic Knight of the Sea
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Custer,

I have much respect for the boy scouts. I was a Star Scout, but got a job, a car, and a girlfriend and developed other priorities before I made Life. I learned much about ethics from the Scouts.
 

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Bootcamp:
DI, " How many of you guys are Eagle scouts"?
5 of us raised our hands.
DI, " You guys are sqaud leaders "
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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19,433 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Pogo said:
Custer,

I have much respect for the boy scouts. I was a Star Scout, but got a job, a car, and a girlfriend and developed other priorities before I made Life. I learned much about ethics from the Scouts.
Cars and girls are why most Scouts don't make Eagle. Best odds to get it done before age 16.

I still try to live up to all of it. It is not easy even when you are grown up.
 

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My daughter just crossed over from a 'brownie' to a Junior Girl Scout, and their motto and oath is basically the same. You are correct, Religion is very minimal, it's more about morals and being a good citizen. I get sick when I hear crazy stories criticizing the Boy Scouts and/or Girl Scouts. Sometimes I think people are afraid to allow children to become good role models and good citizens.

Good for you Custer! :thumbup1:
 

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Custer, can't provide a link - would take too long to find one.

But within the last year there was an instance in which an Eagle Scout was tossed out because he couldn't in good conscience take the oath. As a Scout he considered himself bound to say only the truth, and as an atheist had no belief in God - yet in the oath was required to state that he would meet his duty to God. He told the Scout folks of his dilemma, and their solution was to toss him out.

No, an organization that requires professed belief in God as a condition of membership shouldn't receive a nickel of government money. Nor should an organization that requires a professed disbelief in God as a condition of membership.

Another place where this issue comes up is with Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous, substance abuse self-help organizations based upon Christian principles. The word "God" has been replaced by "higher power" in the Second Step of AA: "Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity", but the central concept is still God. In the AA Big Book there's a chapter on agnosticism/atheism in AA, but it turns out that all it speaks to is converstion to a belief in God. Now why is this an issue?

Because courts regularly court-order alcoholics and addicts to participation in AA or NA. I think that should be prohibited on the same grounds that a court should not be able to order a person to attend church, temple, or mosque.
 

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Mystic Knight of the Sea
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I'm not aware of the government giving the scouts any money.
 

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I might be off base here - but an atheist doesn't believe in God, so wouldn't that make an atheist the higher authority and then they themselves would be their own god? Only reason I ask is someone I know that is an atheist smashed his thumb with a hammer and said God Damnit, so isn't that an acknowledgement of God? Would that then make them not an atheist but an agnostic?


So what do you all think....
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
We are getting increasingly absurd results over what appears to this agnostic (at best) a sick obsession with de minimis religious involvement.

Current leftist theory would keep the local church basketball or softball team from using the high school gym or public park. No college should allow Hillel on campus, or a Jewish fraternity/sorority or what I would assume to be some sort of Muslim student group.

If the BSA dropped any reference to God, the left would still attack them for discrimination against homosexuals in leadership positions of a boys organization.
Left unanswered why sexual appetite discrimination is a bad thing but sex discrimination based upon gender is not a problem? (i.e. it is a boys only group). The Girl Scouts discriminate. So does the YWCA and probably hundreds of groups based upon gender.

The left has a major hard on for the BSA and I can only assume it is because they represent the values the left hates with a passion. Religion and gay discrimination are subterfuges.
 

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Mystic Knight of the Sea
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Custer said:
The left has a major hard on for the BSA and I can only assume it is because they represent the values the left hates with a passion. Religion and gay discrimination are subterfuges.

That's it in a nutshell Custer. Any attempt to say otherwise is BS.
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Pogo said:
I'm not aware of the government giving the scouts any money.
There are costs for letting them use park land for things like jamborees both national and international. Valley Forge has been a big national jamboree site. Many military services sponsor encampments at military bases. Places like Cherry Point. Military bases all over the world sponsor scout troops for members children and other locals.

That being said, the conventional government support is allowing a bunch of young boys to meet in the elementary school lunch room after school hours once a month to hold partrol meetings, play a few games, say the Pledge and practice some scoutcraft and the like.

We would set up the chairs and tables, put them away, sweep the floor and go home. The would let us leave some of gear and flags there on school property for the next meeting.
 

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Mystic Knight of the Sea
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Custer,

Agreed, there are costs involved in those instances. But, there are also costs involved when queers parade in the streets and cities have to pay overtime for the police to controll traffic and the sanitation department to clean up their mess, etc. And, there are costs for little league teams to use public facilities. Not everyone is a queer nor a little league baseball player, or have children that are of the age to play. But, all of those are part of the services that we pay for, and expect to be able to benefit from.
 

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Custer said:
...The left has a major hard on for the BSA and I can only assume it is because they represent the values the left hates with a passion. Religion and gay discrimination are subterfuges.
No, no, no. We have a major hard on for the BSA because of all those cute boys.
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Cephus said:
Dzerzhinsky If this kid was a scout he had to have said this just to get in if he didn't believe in GOD he should have never joined. What is hard to understand,I don't belong to the denicratic party because I don't believe in what they stand for so I don't join and if your not a chathlic, budist,protistain then you don't go to there church so what the hells the problem.Just my .02
I don't have the link but I read the situation pretty closely when it came up.

It smelled to me like a set up. This kid was given every crazy chance to be accomodated by making about any half assed statement he wanted.

He was not a new member. Somehow the issue came up somewhere along the line after he had advanced a few ranks. I can not imagine how the issue would come up in normal Scouting circumstances.

I have never seen or heard or any religious test or question for advancement to higher rank. I never saw any one forced to pray or even questioned about it. The only prayers I ever saw were some people said grace at meals. Some did not. Some camps had various types of religious services offered if you were camping for an extended period. No one was ever forced to go.

I never saw anyone "audited" about how he said the Scout Oath or Law. I new plenty of kids who never bother to memorize it all and just mumbled their way through it.

The only way this would come up was if someone wanted to make a point for some other agenda and put the BSA in a position where it could not back down.
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Cephus said:
So in so many words Custer your saying that the Rump Rangers are out to get BSA because they wouldn't let them be scout leaders. Right?

Not just the gay agenda. I think there are a lot of people on the left who simply hate traditional, value oriented organizations like the Boy Scouts.
 

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Custer said:
...He was not a new member. Somehow the issue came up somewhere along the line after he had advanced a few ranks. I can not imagine how the issue would come up in normal Scouting circumstances...
It is not uncommon for prepubescents and adolescents to have a religious crisis in which they question their religious beliefs. Happened with me in 5th grade. Anyway, considerable likelihood that the fellow may have been a believer when he joined but later lost his faith.

Scenario could also have been (don't know) a fellow who took taking oaths seriously. As opposed to former Democratic presidents and - from your comments, Custer, apparently at least a few conservative Republicans - who think that oaths are nothing to be taken seriously and can just be meaninglessly muttered. I really am quite taken by that comment of yours, Custer; to meaninglessly mutter an oath is quite dishonorable by my standards.

I should hope to think that taking the Scout oath seriously is something that would, in fact, come up in normal Scouting circumstances.

More to the point, Custer, are you saying that Scouts are not bound by the Scout oath? If not, what's it's point? [Straight-up question. I was never in scouting.]
 

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Pogo said:
I'm not aware of the government giving the scouts any money.
Did a quick search on this, found this from an Illinois Girl Scouts site: "2.3% of the council's operating budget is from government funding."

So they do get governmental funding. How much I really don't know. Federal grants generally require that applicants have 501(c)(3) not-for-profit status with the IRS. The BSA and GSA do have 501(c)(3) status, although I did find some sites where anti-Scouting folks were agitating to have that status revoked.
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
They are kids, Smeg and one size does not fit all. The overall point is to try to reach them and make them better adults. It works with some and not others. Some take it seriously and some do not. Maybe most do not. They don't wash out because of some religious conflict of being a teen or pre-teen. They wash out because of the usual teenage stuff.

Those that do take it seriously usually advance, get a lot out of the program and then put a lot back in. 1% or it might be 2% make it to Eagle Scout out of the millions and millions of boys who have passed through the BSA since about 1913.

Yep, they take it seriously but there is still a lot of offer to the boys who don't get as much out of it.

I wish you had been a Boy Scout and then you might better understand my shock at how this organization is being viewed as a religious group.

When I was a Scout in the 60's, we were being attacked by the left at that time for being a para-military group because of uniforms, marching in parades with American flags, outdoor survival skills & camping, shotgun/rifle/archery shooting and stuff like that.

Some of this hate is not new at all.
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Dzerzhinsky said:
Did a quick search on this, found this from an Illinois Girl Scouts site: "2.3% of the council's operating budget is from government funding."

So they do get governmental funding. How much I really don't know. Federal grants generally require that applicants have 501(c)(3) not-for-profit status with the IRS. The BSA and GSA do have 501(c)(3) status, although I did find some sites where anti-Scouting folks were agitating to have that status revoked.
The Girl Scouts do not follow the BSA. In fact, many Girl Scout troops have broken with the Girl Scouts because of what is perceived caving in to the liberal agenda. I think the splinter group is called American Heritage Girls.

The GSA is genreally in favor with your lefty pals except they still do discriminate on the basis of gender, which thus far is conveniently overlooked.
 

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DADDY WARBUCKS
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Mission Statement
The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.


Vision Statement
The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

In the future Scouting will continue to

Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;
Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;
Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;
Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program.
 
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