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No C&R Forum would be complete without a topic about -


Propaganda of Fiction - Enemy at the Gates?

The movie pits legendary Soviet sniper Vasiliy Zaitsev in a hellish duel during the Battle of Staingrad with SS Colonel Heinz Thorwald, head of Germany's snipers' school. Some say it is true, but others believe the duel was Soviet propaganda. See, Enemy at the Gates, versus Thorvald and/or Konig. It is a fitting subject for this forum in either event, since the weapon of choice for Soviet snipers was the venerable 91/30 Mosin Nagant.
 

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Don't know if it is true or not, but it was a really good movie.
 

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I just liked looking at the guns. I bought the movie after buying a german 98 and a russin nagant . fun to see them in action, good movie too
 

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I enjoyed the movie as well, Not sure about the historical accuracy but its nice to see C/Rs in action..
 

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Yep, I bought the movie and have watched it.................a bunch.

Plus Sophie Rois does it for me.:) :)
 

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Watched "Kellys Heros" the other day and noticed , for the first time, the USGI in the bell tower is using a MN 91/30 sniper rifle. Sweet!
 

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Pretty much fiction....based on some truth. Zaitzev did exist, but the "duel" never took place, there was no Major Koenig. I also read that all German snipers were EM's, although I have to do some research on that to be sure.

Either way, it was an enjoyable movie once you get past the cliches, and Hollywood slant....I love the scenes with the Stuka's at the river, and the He-111's bombing the city...too bad they didn't have the real planes to film it!
 

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I've got a book called the ultimate sniper and they talk
about the duel between the two snipers.
It's a good story to read if you get the chance.

dixieboy
 

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It was a good movie for what it is. Part truth with a bunch of fiction put in for mass appeal. Kind of like alot of other good war movies over the yrs.
 

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It was a much better flick than I had expected (the critics generally hated it).

Crossing the river and the ensuing battle scenes were a very very tough act to follow, though. I don't think the rest of the movie was able to hold up to that standard.

What Mauser variant did the German sniper use? Don't remember. [I stumbled across a replica of a Wermacht lever-mount on e-bay and my Yugo M48-A is now an ersatz Wermacht sniping rifle with an obsolescent-looking Russian scope on it.]
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Interesting, Mr. D.

I ran across an interesting magazine article today at the Barber Shop. It conpared the Mosin Nagant (pronounced MOH seen nah GON) 91-30 to the Mauser. It was interesting and I should have asked the Barber to let me have it while I tipped him.

War is the mother of invention, which could explain Mr. D's "ersatz Wermacht sniping rifle," but does anyone know what scope Zaitsev used and how was it mounted?
 

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OK, so we don't know what Mauser variant he had, nor what kind of scope, nor what kind of mounts. Other than that...

I've seen genuine Wermacht sniping scope mounts for Mausers at International Military Antiques (very very pricey!), they're on the net, don't know the URL. At least four variations of mounts were used that I know of. My replica is of a single-lever sidemount.

You used to be able to do some interesting window-shopping on e-bay in the Militaria category. Either they've deleted that category in a frenzy of political correctness, or those ol' flashbacks have been acting up again.
 

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pzjgr said:
Pretty much fiction....based on some truth. Zaitzev did exist, but the "duel" never took place, there was no Major Koenig. I also read that all German snipers were EM's, although I have to do some research on that to be sure.
Actually, it really is mostly historically accurate. The movie is based on a book (I have racked my brains to think of the title, may even have been Enemy at the Gates). The duel between snipers REALLY did happen, although Hollywood added the "romance" triangle between the female sniper and political commissar. The real ending also differs from the movie. The Russians had put the commissar in the field to follow Zaitsev. He saw a glint off the German's scope or rifle and stood up to point him out to Zaitsev. The German, of course, immediately shot the commissar. This gave his position away, and Zaitsev finished off the German in short order.

This is absolutely the factual ending to the story and can be easily verified.
 

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Hmmm.... I read the book before I saw the movie and that's not how I remember it ending in the book. In the book Zaitsev and his spotter (no mention of a commissar at all in the entire book) waited for hours in the general vacinity of where several Russian officers had been killed from great ranges. The spotter finally held up his helmet only to have it shot by the enemy sniper. Zaitsev spotted the muzzle flash which came from underneath a sheet of mangled metal. One carefully placed shot killed the enemy sniper.
I can remember watching the movie wondering why they ruined such a great story. Also the other characters are for the most part real people although they did not interact with one another in real life. The story of the female sniper is true. The story of the child spy is also true. Many people have researched "Major Koenig" and come up with nothing. The Germans did in fact send one of their best snipers to Stalingrad to kill Zaitsev. Apparently he wasn't good enough. I guess the hollywood people just took the many stories from the book and intertwined them. I was a bit disappointed in the movie but the guns were great.
 

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Shortrnd said:
Hmmm.... I read the book before I saw the movie and that's not how I remember it ending in the book. In the book Zaitsev and his spotter (no mention of a commissar at all in the entire book) waited for hours in the general vacinity of where several Russian officers had been killed from great ranges. The spotter finally held up his helmet only to have it shot by the enemy sniper. Zaitsev spotted the muzzle flash which came from underneath a sheet of mangled metal. One carefully placed shot killed the enemy sniper.

I got my version from a program on the History Channel several years ago.

Apparently there's a discrepancy. I'll go with what you say is in the book since I can't recall which program on the History Channel told the version I related...
 

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Shortrnd said:
Hmmm.... I read the book before I saw the movie...
When I read the book first, I'm invariably disappointed with the movie. After all these years the sole exception remains "To Kill a Mockingbird". Oh, and "Leather Boys in Bondage".
 

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Dzerzhinsky said:
When I read the book first, I'm invariably disappointed with the movie. After all these years the sole exception remains "To Kill a Mockingbird". Oh, and "Leather Boys in Bondage".
Yeah I would have to agree with you. I was overseas when the movie came out so I had no choice but to read it first. With that said........... the book was worse than the movie. Great stories within it........ boring book overall.
 

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The book is "EATG". Author, a now dead historian, last name Craig. Craig's research is well-repected. There are differences between the book and movie. Believe the book.

Scope used was probably a PEM. Was a Russian copy of a Zeiss design. Would have to see the movie again, as I am not 100% certain from memory.

Come over here: http://www.mosinnagant.net/sniper section/default.asp
and learn lots. Can't hurt to belong to more than one board. :)
 
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