[fal_shooter]

I would like to build one AK for each of my three grand children and give it to them as a present. If I understand this homade gun law I am not allowed to dispose of, sell or will any homemade gun. Is that correct?

I would like to do a screw build, function test it, disassemble it and let the kids put it back together and locktite it down. They would do this under my supervision. Would they then be considered the builder since in essence THEY did build a kit?

I plan on using all compliance parts and a bent metal homemade receiver.

Would I have a problem if I put letters and numbers on the homemade receiver that could be construed as a serial number. I was thinking of each kids initials and the number from the parts kit just so the numbers would match. For example if the kit was numbered 12345 I might use ABC12345. Would this be legal?

 

[Winn R]

Shooter-- I've run across the same issue and can offer an uninformed opinion.

Without being able to quote chapter and verse, my interpretation has been that the aspect of financial gain is a central question.

I would think that you're being double safe having them do the final assembly.

Were existing serial numbers involved on the receiver there would be an issue; however, my understanding is that you're free to mark your bent in any manner you wish.

 

[hotbarrel]

If I cant give sell or will them, then what happens when I die??? If I cant will them I suppose then the feds steal them from my family, rite?? :dunno:

Now if I use an allready numbered reciever then it is all differant, rite, then they can stay in the family??? :dunno:

If this is true you may be better to buy a few recievers and go through a ffl so they can stay in the family.

Of course their is allways the fact that it would be very hard to prove who built what and when, after it is done :smile: . I have a few recievers that went through an FFL and I have NO plan yet to build on them any time soon. SOOoo I could build for my son now or we could build it togeather in a few years, or he could build on it many years from now. If the question happens to come up ten or twenty years from now how could anyone know when it was built??

 

[yosuthnmasa]

What's the scoop on this stuff? Really! I think a legal minded opinion from someone (Hint...Hint) would be great about now. I have a question about the guns you build that you buy the receiver(with serial#) from a manufacturer and assemble the rest of it with parts kits. What are all of the legalities on this.Do these builds fit the same criteria as any other build. Meaning you're not suppose to sell them? Or, if I go out and have a premade receiver sent to my FFL and logged in and everything, then I turn around and put all the parts on it, can I then sell it? I know for sure its a no go on an 80% but what about ones I build on a legally registered receiver?I've been thinking about this for sometime. If it were legal, then I could buy a couple of receivers, assemble my guns and sell them if I wanted. The reason I ask is because I've never really thought about building one from a prefab receiver. I've really only researched the info. regarding the builds I'm doing with 80% receivers.

 

[hotbarrel]

I can only tell you about the kit you put togeather on a reciever that ALLREADY has a ser. number on it and came to you through a FFL.. YES you can sell it . HOWEVER you can not build it with the intent of selling it, or sell more than a "reasonable" amount of guns. SO I would not build one and sell it the next week, and I would not build a half dozzen and sell them off in the same year. just my interpretation. ALSO I would ALLWAYS sell through an FFL to cover your butt. keep the name of the buyer and a record of the compliance parts includeing any proof of them beeing U.S. parts [even photos] again just to cover your butt.

So if you build on, say a vulcan this week and need some cash for christmass their is no harm selling it in december ,

You do not want them to say you manufactor guns for sale.

my best advise is to build for fun and for your own collection

 

[yosuthnmasa]

I can only tell you about the kit you put togeather on a reciever that ALLREADY has a ser. number on it and came to you through a FFL.. YES you can sell it . HOWEVER you can not build it with the intent of selling it, or sell more than a "reasonable" amount of guns. SO I would not build one and sell it the next week, and I would not build a half dozzen and sell them off in the same year. just my interpretation. ALSO I would ALLWAYS sell through an FFL to cover your butt. keep the name of the buyer and a record of the compliance parts includeing any proof of them beeing U.S. parts [even photos] again just to cover your butt.

So if you build on, say a vulcan this week and need some cash for christmass their is no harm selling it in december ,

You do not want them to say you manufactor guns for sale.

my best advise is to build for fun and for your own collection

So there is a difference between a serial numbered receiver that is used with a parts kit to build a firearm and a non-serial numbered receiver that is used with a parts kit to build a firearm. Is is safe to say that it is "more acceptable" to sell one that you've made with a serial numbered receivier vs. one that doesn't have a serial number? Or...more legal? The reason I ask is because I'm building my own receiver which doesn't have a serial number and won't even think about selling it. On the other hand, if for some reason I had built a few with receivers that had serial numbers, and I was strapped for cash..I could sell these with more ease than the non-serial #'d ones. Am I on the right track here?

 

[hotbarrel]

it will be a LOT LOT LOT more complicated to sell one on a reciever that you made. if it is just one "1", you can sell it easy IF it has allready been numbered and gone through an FFL. just like any gun you bought anyware.

Rember this part is only my oppinion
I believe you will need to get registered numbers from or with the ATF for your homemade reciever. GOOD LUCK. maby you can get a lisance and become a legal manufactor ,, again GOOD LUCK.
for thies reasons I have never built any on a home made reciever. pain in the ass to sell it,,, ever

 

[Winn R]

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2000_ref.htm

here's the regs--not that I understand them.

but I don't see anything like what you guys are talking about. Can you find anything that distinguishes between instate transfer by an individual of a bent and ffl item?

 

[yosuthnmasa]

I have no intentions whatsoever of selling any of my guns. In fact, I am still not finished with my first bent. I just got to thinking the other day about the things we have been talking about in this thread. I just never thought about it, because I have planned on building all of mine from ACE blanks.So, this is just a matter of curiosity.

If I had a receiver from lets say a, an AR15. And, I picked up parts at shows and from my friends, etc. and built a complete rifle. Would it be legal to sell this? I hear about guys all the time building this or that. Or bubba jobbing this or that. Is this the same principle? The only difference here, is that the rifle in question would have its parts built from a parts kit. One would still comply with all other laws such as the parts count.

Winn, I looked around for a bit, but didn't find anything on this subject.

 

[fal_shooter]

yosuthnmasa

The way the ATF looks at it is as follows:

The receiver is the gun. The gun is the receiver. The government wants money and possibly a pound of flesh. If it is a commercial numbered receiver they have paper and tax has been paid. If you build with a commercial numbered receiver you can sell it.

The grey area is if it is a "home made" receiver. No proof of tax being paid and no trackablility. No money for the government no trackability so the government is not happy :scared:

My original post was related to this grey area. Where I live I pay a minimum of $25 for a transfer and some places it is $50. For $50 I could do around 2 - 4 home made receivers.

 

[hotbarrel]

Rember this part is only my oppinion

only oppinion

 

[yosuthnmasa]

So, theoretically, it would be ok to order a few registered receivers, add parts kits and resell. Not on a huge basis,though.

 

[fal_shooter]

It is my understanding that it would be legal as long as you did not build them with the "intention" of selling them. If you buy a legal receiver and build a few guns then need money for a new project you could sell what you bought to pay for the new project. It's your hobby to build guns and you sell a few to pay for your next build. You are not in the business of selling guns.

 

[tac-40]

I got this from my friend who is a Class 3 dealer and manufacturer. He said any receiver sold as a plain receiver "only" has not had the Federal Excise Tax paid on it. Even though the ATF considers it a gun, it is not "assembled" and therefore not liable for the tax. Once we build or assemble the rest of the parts on a receiver, then it becomes liable for the tax when it is sold. The ATF has determined that yes you can sell the assembled gun without paying the tax as long as it was NOT assembled for the purposes of sale. They don't have any specific number that limits how many you can build and sell before you are considered a manufacturer and liable for the tax. It is left up to the ATF.

This is only for the receivers purchased through an FFL, and not for the home built/bent non-gun ones.

 

[yosuthnmasa]

I got this from my friend who is a Class 3 dealer and manufacturer. He said any receiver sold as a plain receiver "only" has not had the Federal Excise Tax paid on it. Even though the ATF considers it a gun, it is not "assembled" and therefore not liable for the tax. Once we build or assemble the rest of the parts on a receiver, then it becomes liable for the tax when it is sold. The ATF has determined that yes you can sell the assembled gun without paying the tax as long as it was NOT assembled for the purposes of sale. They don't have any specific number that limits how many you can build and sell before you are considered a manufacturer and liable for the tax. It is left up to the ATF.

This is only for the receivers purchased through an FFL, and not for the home built/bent non-gun ones.

Tac,

Thanks for the info. This is precisely what I was trying to find out. It is funny to see so many guys, atleast around here, who will buy a receiver and piece it together with parts from all over the place. Guess if there not in the business for resale, although I see them sell them all the time, they are ok.

 

[yosuthnmasa]

I can only tell you about the kit you put togeather on a reciever that ALLREADY has a ser. number on it and came to you through a FFL.. YES you can sell it . HOWEVER you can not build it with the intent of selling it, or sell more than a "reasonable" amount of guns. SO I would not build one and sell it the next week, and I would not build a half dozzen and sell them off in the same year. just my interpretation. ALSO I would ALLWAYS sell through an FFL to cover your butt. keep the name of the buyer and a record of the compliance parts includeing any proof of them beeing U.S. parts [even photos] again just to cover your butt.

So if you build on, say a vulcan this week and need some cash for christmass their is no harm selling it in december ,

You do not want them to say you manufactor guns for sale.

my best advise is to build for fun and for your own collection

I believe I see this happen very often with parts kits built on MAK-90 receivers.