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here are the scans of the ATF letter concerning selling guns with homebuilt receivers....plus other subjects. I had to shrink them a bit so it is hard to read. See previous post for verbage.
 

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It could be posted as a .pdf file. It would be full size then. Just a thought.
 

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dose it say they can or can not be sold??? I was allways told no sale for home made. way too much and small to read...
 

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very interesting indeed. Copies saved to the computer.
 

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CFR478.92 has to do with a LISCENSED MANUFACTURER putting a serial number on a receiver.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL.

I would argue that ATFE is 100% wrong , in having to mark your receiver and going through a FFL.

Further , I think that if you did add a serial numaber and transfer it through anFFL , you are edging toward the definition of 'manufacturer' and being that you don't have a liscense to do so , that could cause legal problems.

This is would seem to be more of a 'sugestion' than - THIS IS WHAT THE LAW IS.

? 478.92 How must licensed manufacturers
and licensed importers identify
firearms, armor piercing ammunition,
and large capacity ammunition
feeding devices?

LICENSED MANUFACTURERS !!!!!!
 

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Each time I see a clarification on something from the ATF I think the next one couldn't be more confusing, and each time I'm wrong...
 

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Perhaps , what the ATFE was trying to suggest is :

1. It's 'probably' a good idea to mark your receiver.

2. It's 'probably' a good idea if you are going to sell a home made firearm (or any other firearm , for that matter) to someone , that you do not know (are they a fellon ? have they been convicted of DV ?) to do the transfer through a FFL , so that a backround check is done and so that it is 'on paper'.

NIETHER OF THESE ARE LEGALLY REQUIRED.
 

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MOST DEFINATELY some states require that ALL firearms be marked with a serial number and ALL firearms transfers be conducted through a liscensed dealer.

In some states an individual making a firearm may be illegal.

In some states (Kalifornia / Michigan I believe) serial numbers ARE required.

What it boils down to , is that you MUST check into the ANY laws that are going to effect building your own firearm.
 

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fansipans said:
Each time I see a clarification on something from the ATF I think the next one couldn't be more confusing, and each time I'm wrong...
Amen.....
 

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As I read this it says the gun must only be MARKED in accordance with 27 CFR. No stipulation that it must be handled by an FFL. If you are selling it out of state you will and always have been required to do a FFL transfer. State laws may govern.



I am very happy to see this letter because I have tried to get BATF to clarify the issue of the sale of personal built firearms, for years:)

However, one must not run afoul of the "in the business of manufacturing" clause.
 

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Cephus said:
HB it says in so many words you can but you got to put a serial # on it and run through an FFL .At least that's the way I read it. IT's on another post in bigger print.
http://www.gunco.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2737
Here it is.
no statutory basis for this. in many states a face to face of an unmarked gun is within state statute, and nothing in federal code prohibits it. read the law, and know the law. it is public record. opinion letters are sometimes written by people who don't know or care for the law.

not saying i want to be a test case, but that judges are bound to rule of law, not opinion letter. some people who write letters don't like the result, so they write letters. they can make your life hell, and bankrupt you, so being right does not pay, but it's still being right.

the fed statute on marking receivers is specifically limited to "manufacturers who engage in the business". it is a matter of tax revenue. read the law.


so i will say it again and wait for it to be deleted: this board and most other gun boards are paid for by my tax dollars. capische? i understand the need to keep tabs on people who look like they might break the law. i am careful not to.

this coming from a guy who is living in a country where they shoot you in the back of the head for felony type crimes. how soon till you can say this, too?
 

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r2d2 said:
This is a reply I got from the ATF:
____________________

It is against the law to manufacture a firearm without an approprite license from the federal government.

It is also illegal to own or possess a short barreled rifle except those that are registered with the Alocohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Division of the United States Treasury Department and untill a tax is paid on the weapon.

There are also state and local laws limiting or prohibiting the possession of these weapons in many areas.

Severe penalties are prescribed for violations of these laws.

____________________

If you put a serial number on your home made firearm and sell it through a liscensed dealer, you are consider as a manufacturer engaged in manufacturing of firearms.

I doubt that.. Let's se a scan of the letter?
 

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you gentlemen have hit upon the real issue. atf authority under title 18 is based on their ability to levy tax on manufacturers who are "engaged in the business". i wish them well in their efforts, because government DOES PROVIDE a service in making sure that manufacturers cannot sell an unsafe product at exorbitant price through monopoly and deception.

this being said, "manufacturer" is defined clearly in the adjacent code, and does not include the hobbyist who makes the incidental sale to further his own collection. it does, however, include the hobbyist who makes the product with intent to sell to "fund" his collection. as with all law, intent is the key. a shoestring is a machine gun, if that is what you are specifically using it for. if not, it's just for keeping your shoes on your feet.

i am in support of the atf monitoring joeken, and jailing them for false advertising and fraud. unfortunately, they don't quite have the authority to do this, only to make them toe the line in book keeping. chase 'em hard, atf. they are pissing a lot of newbies off real fast. you got guccione in kansas, and can get joeken, too, through a few phone calls to another agency of government.

what to do with this letter? in many states a face to face violates state statute. in this case, a dealer/intermediary must be used. if a dealer have possesion overnite, he must record in bound book by serial number and manufacturer unless is made before 1968. if he hold for only one minute, the case is not so clear. so administrative law is made to require the serial number and mfr in this case. most dealers will not transfer for you if not serialised and mfr'd unless you can convince was made before 1968 omnibus. so electropencil "joes pizza (your name), your town and state, usa", and use the trunnion number of the kit for serial.

a very grey area that a lawyer could bill a lot of hours for. because the other guy is spending my money, i will not make a practice of testing their patience. maybe this is a question best avoided, but the conflict between this letter and the clear intent of the law is striking and should be noted.

the absense of contact info and author's name is troubling. who will take responsibility for this letter? if no man will, on whose authority is it issued?

the text provided:
http://www.gunco.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2737

when i issue a letter for the company i represent it may levy a cost of a hundred thousand dollars to a foreign vendor. always i will sign and date, and explain under whose counsel and authority or section of binding code i make the decision. i see no such validation in this case, only a reference to a code section that by definition does not apply.

your papers, please.
ya vohl, maybe you will see the number on mine arm?

my grandfather was a german speaking american grunt in the war between nations 60 years ago. may his purple hearts and bronze stars have value in this time.
 
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