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19,433 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What a settlement. They admitted no wrongdoing....

Marines cut tie to Scout troops
Potomac News ^ | December 1, 2004 | AILEEN M. STRENG

The sponsorship of two Boys Scout troops and a Cub Scout pack by the Quantico Marine Corps base ended recently following a partial settlement reached between the American Civil Liberties Union and the Pentagon.

"Marine Corps Base Quantico will no longer be a charter signatory with the local Boy Scout troops," said Marine Lt. Col. Rick Long, director of the Quantico Public Affairs Office. "However, all other support and access to [the base] will remain the same for the Boy Scouts as with any other authorized non-profit organization,"

Boy Scout Troop 121, Troop 176 and Cub Scout Pack 176 have been holding their meetings aboard base and will continue to do so, Long said.

The Department of Defense has agreed to send out a message to all military bases reaffirming its policy against sponsorship of non-federal organizations.

The ACLU of Illinois had filed a lawsuit in 1999 contending that because the Scouts excluded people who did not profess a belief in God, government funding of the organization through military officials acting in an official capacity violated the constitutional requirement for separation of church and state.

"The settlement agreement clarifies regulations with regard to DoD personnel acting in official capacities such as serving on boards of directors and signing charters that serve as the legal basis for the creation of Boy Scouts organizations," Long said.

The Department of Defense did not admit to any wrongdoing in the settlement.

Quantico Marine officials did not contribute monetarily to the local Scout troops, Long said.

"The settlement does not prohibit the Department of Defense from supporting the Boy Scouts of America. Boy Scout units are permitted to meet on military bases and military personnel are allowed to remain active in Boy Scout programs," Long said.

The level of support provided to Boy Scouts will not diminish as a result of the settlement, Long said.

"Under the very limited settlement applying existing DoD policy, DoD may not officially sponsor Boy Scout units and DoD personnel may not sponsor Boy Scout units in an official capacity. The DoD policy prohibiting official sponsorship applies to all private organizations, not just the Boy Scouts."

Ted Stout, an active-duty Marine and scoutmaster of Boy Scout Troop 121, said that aside from finding another organization other than the Quantico Marine Corps base to sign its charter, the settlement will not impact his Scouts.

"I'll be going out this week to find another sponsor," said Stout, who has been active in the troop for about four years. "I'm very confident that we will get another sponsoring organization. It is not going to be a problem."

Many of the boys active in these groups are military children or have parents who work aboard Quantico. There are other adults, aside from Stout who also have ties to the military. The military personnel will not be affected by the settlement since they are volunteers with the organization and are not do doing so in an official military capacity.

Aside from as a meeting place, Scout organizations do not use Quantico facilities that often despite the availability to them and other non-profit organizations.

"Over the last two years, four Boy Scout Troops requested and were authorized use of Lunga Reservoir Campgrounds," Long said.

Stout's troop was among those to camp by the lake.

"There is going to be no change that I can see," Stout said.

3,690 Posts
If I read this correctly, all that's happened is that the Scouts now are to be treated by the Marines the same as any other 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization: That while the ACLU arguably was seeking to impose negative consequences upon the Scouts for their theism, all that happened was that they're to be treated as no different from any other not-for-profit organization. And, accordingly, the Marines won't sign onto their charter nor serve on their board just as they wouldn't be doing that for the local United Way chapter.

Did I get that right?

If I did, I think it was a good settlement.

We've yattered about this before: I think the theism of the Scout Oath should prevent governmental funding of the Boy Scouts (and having paid staff at another agency is funding that other agency, called "in kind" funding), but I do not think it should preclude their access to governmentally-funded facilities.

19,433 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
How about this list from UNR?

ACLU Alden Collier [email protected] Richard Siegel
Advertising Club Mike Thomas
African Students Forum Keith Sotomey [email protected] Johnson Makoba
Al-Islam Lyndsey Grune [email protected] Susan Chandler
Alliance Ricky Medina [email protected] Laura Vargas
Alpha Lambda Tau Association Matthew Free [email protected] Michael Meese
Alpha Phi Sigma Naomi Meachan [email protected] Debi Dearman
Alpha Psi Omega Tyler Kempf [email protected] Jim Bernardi
American Advertising Federation Michael Thomas [email protected] Judy Strauss
American Institute of Chemical Engineers Carlos Ledon [email protected] Charles Coronella
American Marketing Assoc Rachel Kreeft [email protected] Judy Strauss
ASCE/AGC Trent Baldwin [email protected] David Sanders
Asian American Student Assoc Steve Luong [email protected] Cathy Choi-Pearson
ASID Karolyn Keck LuAnn Nissen
Assoc. of Computing Machinery Hector Urtubia [email protected] Fred Harris
Baptist Student Ministries Andrew Clifton [email protected] Henry Watanabe
BBQ Rick Perdomo [email protected] Steve Maples
Beta Alpha Psi - Zeta Iota Chapter Anthony Denn [email protected] Lynn Bible
Biochemistry Paul Carlson [email protected] Ron Reitz
Biological Society Emily-Jean Gartrell [email protected] Alan Gubanich/Christie Howard
Black Student Organization Anthony Sewell [email protected] Reville Niccolls
Boxing Shawhin Ebrahimi [email protected] Ed Martinez
Broadcast Erin Coleman [email protected] Travis Linn
CABNR Student Council Alicia Privette [email protected] Roger Lewis
Campus Bible Fellowship Jess Traver [email protected] Fred Harris
Campus Christian Association Lorin Darst [email protected] Matthew Leone
Campus Crusade for Christ Danielle Gilbert [email protected] Sue Gilmore
Campus Girl Scouts Christine Chamberlain [email protected] Dennis Uken
Campus Greens Eric Tracy [email protected] David Lee
Champions for Christ Christian Popoff [email protected] Jerry Ballew
Chemical Society Truc-Ha Duong [email protected] Frank Baglin
Chinese Student Association Grace Du [email protected]
Chi Alpha Trish Lunt [email protected] Paul Mitchell
Circle K Elizabeth Liles [email protected]
College Democrats Zee Bogale [email protected] Stacy Gordon
College Libertarians Emily Rahn [email protected] William Leubank
College Republicans Jason Oetjen [email protected]
Collegiate Chess Club Stephen Foster [email protected] Victor Atkocaitis
Cycling Team Ryan Burger [email protected] Eric Wang
Dance Co-Op Krissie Thornhill [email protected] Teddy Araas
Delta Sigma Pi Crystal Burgess [email protected] Anthony Cotterell
Educators Association Crystal Drake [email protected] Tom Sawyer
English Janean Curnutt [email protected] Scott Slovic
Eta Kappa Nu Matthew Wong [email protected] Bruce Johnson
FOCUS Nichole Patterson [email protected] Reggie Stewart
German Daniel Freitag [email protected] Horst Lange
Gerontology Club Michele Capovilla [email protected] Zanny Walsh
Hawaii Club Heather Molina [email protected] Renee McCloud
HCS Student Network Shonna Mayfield [email protected] Christin Echeverria
Hillel Elliot Sparkman [email protected] Miles Greiner
History La Donna Childress [email protected] Linda Curcio
Honors Student Assoc Cole Griggs [email protected] Mary Paszek
ICOC Campus Ministry Carrie Sampson [email protected] Jodie Helman
Inst. Of Elec. & Electron. Engineering Chuck Randall [email protected] Bruce Johnson
International Affairs Ryan Larsen [email protected] Richard Ganzel
International Club Mui Ngu [email protected] Margaret Hellwarth
International Student Christian Association James Stearley [email protected] Ed Ghymn
Intervarsity Christian Fellowship Mark Ports [email protected] H. Eugene LeMay
Japanese Student Action Network Nobu Maruyama [email protected]
John Mackay Kristen Campbell [email protected] Dan Taylor
Juggling Club Cody Canon [email protected] Maureen Cronin
Lacrosse Team JohnHenry Giddings [email protected] Erik Dickson
Las Americas Lily Martiniez [email protected] Jacqueline Pistorello/Laura Vargas
Latter Day Saints Student Assoc. Joseph Perritt [email protected] Denny Jones
MENC Megan Webb [email protected] CJ Walters
Mensa Clayton Smith [email protected] Mark Simkin
MHRA Crystal Burgess [email protected] Yvonne Stedham
Moonlit Rendezvous Company Philip Magcalas [email protected] James Bernardi
Mosaic Hoa Troung [email protected] Sandy Rodriguez
Movimiento Estudiuntil Xicano de Aztlun Monica Alarcon [email protected] Sandy Rodriguez
Native American Organization Jacqueline John [email protected] Melva Shaw-Hunter
Non Traditional Student Union Vicki Bourn [email protected] Melanie Purdy
Omicron Delta Epsilon Brandon Eaton [email protected] Mark Nichols
Oriental Sword Club Sara McAllister [email protected] Robert Turner
Orvis Student Nurse Assoc Renee Millette [email protected] Mary Ann Lambert
Over The Falls Club Wes Thelen [email protected] Torrey Carrol
Phi Alpha Delta Jabron Whiteside [email protected] Pat Wilson
Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia John Adler [email protected] A.G. McGrannahan
Pre-Physical Therapy Luis Godoy [email protected] Debby Morss
Project Sunshine Alison Carroll [email protected] Patricia Wilson
Public Relations Student Society of America Alexia Bratiofis [email protected] James Ellis
Queer Student Union Justin Sewell [email protected] Daniel Jacques
Ranger Challenge Logan Kerschner [email protected] Steven Milliken
Reno Christian Fellowship Cara Mia Besio [email protected] G. Cornelis Van Kooten
Residence Hall Association Michael Rifer [email protected] Jerome Maese
Rifle Mary Evenson [email protected] Fred Harvey
Rugby Cory Jennings [email protected] Mark Correia
Rural Assistance Program Armando Veloz [email protected] Laura Cunningham
Sagens Angella Barr [email protected] Pat Wilson
Sierra NV Info Prof Karla Hamm [email protected] Dana Edberg
Sigma Alpha Iota Elizabeth Lynner [email protected] Nancy Nails
Sister II Sister Courtney Dandy [email protected] Kelly Oaks
SkillsUSA-VICA Tom Boyer [email protected] Peter Goin
Society of Prof Journalists Karly Imus [email protected] Donica Mensing
Society of Women Engineers Sonya Aguilera [email protected] Indira Chatlerjee
Student Ambassadors Jennifer Tartan [email protected] Steve Maples
Student Art Assoc Diana Snyder [email protected] Michael Sarich
Student Dietetic Assoc Mary (Liz) French [email protected] Jamie Benedict
Student Orientation Staff Stephani Foust [email protected] Steve Maples
Swing Club Michelle Harper [email protected]
Ultimate Frisbee Chuck Randall [email protected] Guy Axtell
Undergraduate Student Social Work Assoc Linda White [email protected] Denise Montcalm
Vietnamese Culture Hoa Troung [email protected] Reggie Stewart
Volunteers In Progress Mandy Smith [email protected] Debby Morss
Wrestling Kyle Moon [email protected] Jim Fitzsimmons

Mystic Knight of the Sea
13,384 Posts
Dzerzhinsky said:
I think the theism of the Scout Oath should prevent governmental funding of the Boy Scouts (and having paid staff at another agency is funding that other agency, called "in kind" funding), but I do not think it should preclude their access to governmentally-funded facilities.
I think the Scouts should not accept government money even if it was offered. To do so, they would be under strict control of the government on their programs, selecting scoutmasters, etc. There is always strings attached to money confiscated from wage earners and redistributed by bureaucrats in government.

19,433 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I do not think they take money but I suspect they take in kind type services such as the money the military might spend to make a site suitable for them to hold a jamboree.
That could represent some real value.

Jamborees, both national and international were considered major plum events to sponsor. Communities competed for them as they produced a lot of revenue and prestige.

Other support is pretty minimal such as letting them use a building to meet. Churches, schools and businesses traditionally did this.

Many of the camporees I attended as a boy were on the grounds of a business that had a huge acreage which they allowed us to use. It was not open to the public but it was considered a great thing to do for select groups like the BSA.

3,690 Posts
Custer said:
How about this list from UNR?

ACLU Alden Collier [email protected] Richard Siegel...
Damn you, Custer, just when I think I've figured out a rational way to deal with a situation you destroy my lovely theories with your ugly facts.

Although the question with regard to these college clubs that comes up for me is the extent to which - if at all - the club is subsidized by public funding versus the University allowing the club to use University facilities and the extent to which a club excludes folks on the basis of race, creed, etc. For example, if one must be a Mormon to join the Latter Day Saints Association that certainly raises some issues that aren't raised by affiliation with the American Institute of Chemical Engineers.

But it's clearly an outrage for the University to have any affiliation whatsoever with the American Marketing Association or its front-organization, the Queer Student Union.

19,433 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
They all get money from student activity fees plus in kind services like offices, web sites and other back office support.

Now, would you like to discuss sex discrimination like sororities or perhaps black fraternities?

3,690 Posts
Custer said:
They all get money from student activity fees plus in kind services like offices, web sites and other back office support.

Now, would you like to discuss sex discrimination like sororities or perhaps black fraternities?
Well, now you've got my thinking all muddled up: The fiscal sources you mention are pretty close to taxpayers' money, but not quite. So long as the taxpayers aren't paying for it, I don't much give a damn. Which, as I think of it, means that student fees may be OK, but in-kind support from stuff paid for by the taxpayers should be prohibited (e.g. a professor should not act as the contact person for one of these organizations on company time if the organization discriminates on the basis of race, religion, etc.).

Sororities I'm OK with, as I am with fraternities.

Black frats and sororities, however, I am against. I should think that a university wouldn't/shouldn't allow itself to be affiliated with any frat or sorority that discriminates on the basis of race. Gets a bit muddied for me if the university accepts no public funding, though.

Pardon my ignorance, but I've been away from academia for a very long time: Are there really university-affiliated fraternities and sororities that restrict membership on the basis of race, with the university being a publicly-funded one*? If so, that's disgusting.

*I dunno how the law works but, for example, University of San Francisco is a Jesuit university that is not publicly-funded. I don't know if they have a university-affiliated fraternity that restricts its membership to Catholics, but if they did I think it would be OK. Were it publicly-funded, though, I think that discrimination on the basis of religion would not be OK. [USF itself, by the way, does not discriminate on the basis of religion; it discriminates only on the basis of whether or not your check clears the bank.]

19,433 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I think they get away with the race thing because the charters have all been changed to avoid overt discrimination. Nothing more than a play on words so for example, in theory the black fraternity is not going to officially exclude whites but I think you can guess the membership composition. Then the black fraternities have their own inter fraternity council even though they are also members of the general one.

There have been cases, usually lost that have challenged the use of student activity fees to support organizations that represent groups repugnant to the student's beliefs.
It can cut both ways. An atheist student upset with a religious group or a religious individual upset that his fees go to support a gay group.

The arguments are based upon 1st amendment issues and freedom of association.

To my knowlege, the only college in the US that does not accept any government money is Hillsdale College in Hillsdale Michigan.
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