Gunco Forums banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 75 Posts

·
Friend of MCMXI
Joined
·
8,717 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Some more garbage!!!!!!

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7033604

U.S. Special Forces Punished for Iraq Prisoner Abuse

Wed Dec 8, 2004 06:31 PM ET

By Will Dunham


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Four U.S. troops serving on an elite special operations task force have been disciplined for abusing prisoners in Iraq, including unauthorized use of Taser electric-shock weapons, the Pentagon said on Wednesday.

The task force's activities became known on Tuesday with the release of a June document stating its members punched and abused Iraqi prisoners in front of Defense Intelligence Agency agents and threatened the agents to try to silence them.

The incidents for which the four were disciplined occurred sometime in the spring, a U.S. official said. There has been a series of revelations about U.S. military abuse of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Chief Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita told a briefing four members of the task force were given administrative punishment by the military for excessive use of force involving the unauthorized use of Taser weapons.

These devices use a nonlethal electric charge to disrupt muscle activity and subdue people.

All four were reassigned to other responsibilities and two were removed from the task force, Di Rita added.

The commander of the task force had opened an investigation of potential detainee abuse within the unit even before the DIA letter was written, Di Rita added, but said he did not know what had triggered that probe.

Di Rita did not identify the commander or the troops involved. He also did not provide details on the discipline against the four, on the exact nature of their conduct or on when the discipline was meted out. Di Rita said he did not know if there would be criminal charges.

The American Civil Liberties Union on Tuesday released a June 25 letter from Navy Vice Admiral Lowell Jacoby, director of the DIA, to Stephen Cambone, undersecretary of defense for intelligence, detailing detainee abuse by the task force, assigned to find "high-value" fugitives in Iraq. The ACLU obtained the letter under the Freedom of Information Act.

ABU GHRAIB SCANDAL

It was written two months after photographs of U.S. soldiers abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib jail near Baghdad became public, and five months after American commanders in Iraq first learned of the Abu Ghraib abuse.

Jacoby wrote that two DIA agents working with the task force at a detention facility in Baghdad saw officers "punch a prisoner in the face to the point the individual needed medical attention," and observed prisoners arriving at the facility bruised and with burn marks on their backs.

Members of the task force made unspecified threats to try to keep the DIA agents quiet, confiscated their vehicle keys, and told them not to leave the compound without permission, the letter stated.

It is unclear whether the incidents mentioned in the letter involved any of the four troops who were disciplined.

"This is something that the department takes very seriously. It's something that commanders take very seriously," Di Rita said of detainee abuse.

He said 26 Army soldiers faced trial by court-martial relating to detainee abuse, 46 other soldiers have received administrative punishment, and 14 Marines have been convicted on abuse-related charges.

Alistair Hodgett, a spokesman for Amnesty International USA, expressed particular concern over the use of Tasers. The human rights group last month asked the Pentagon to explain its policy on the use of Tasers and other electric shock devices.

"While people ill treating prisoners generally resort to low-tech methods, electricity has been a popular method. And the Taser makes it all that easier, and frankly very effective, if you chose to use it to abuse a prisoner," Hodgett said. ACLU lawyer Amrit Singh said "the Pentagon may not have been forced to come clean on the investigations" of the latest instances of abuse had the group not forced the release of the letter.
 

·
Code name: Felix
Joined
·
6,361 Posts
It takes a lot of control not to get even in some ways with the kind of people who think nothing of decapitating us in front of a camera.
 

·
Friend of MCMXI
Joined
·
8,717 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
aviator said:
It takes a lot of control not to get even in some ways with the kind of people who think nothing of decapitating us in front of a camera.
You never want to sink to their level, but like you said Aviator, at least they still have their head. I'm sure that we're not getting the full story from the press.

If we were, we'd probably be pinning a medal on their chest instead of punishing them.
 

·
Code name: Felix
Joined
·
6,361 Posts
Preacher.....you are a religious person and you would never think about sinking to their level, but I would. It's us or them and as long as I have the upper hand it's going to be them. War is a dirty game.
 

·
Friend of MCMXI
Joined
·
8,717 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
aviator said:
Preacher.....you are a religious person and you would never think about sinking to their level, but I would. It's us or them and as long as I have the upper hand it's going to be them. War is a dirty game.
This isn't the first news I've seen on this story. From what I've seen before, when the prisoners cooperated, they were treated fairly. When they gave resistance, they were dealt with.

I don't think the SEAL's did any wrong.

I don't think dealing with resistance is sinking to their level. And I'll do anything I can to help you keep the upper hand and keep them from tearing our level down.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,386 Posts
aviator said:
Preacher.....you are a religious person and you would never think about sinking to their level, but I would. It's us or them and as long as I have the upper hand it's going to be them. War is a dirty game.
At the risk of sounding cold hearted, I have to agree. They have no rules, so why should we tie the hands of our troops. I'm afraid the milk and cookie method won't work with these animals.
 

·
DADDY WARBUCKS
Joined
·
19,433 Posts
We are in a fight for our lives even if no one wants to admit this in public.

It is not policing a high crime area of a US city but that is how it is being portrayed.
 

·
Class 07 FFL/SOT
Joined
·
6,297 Posts
Huh?

But what of the Constitutional "Rights" of these poor downtrodden tentheads? Their only form of political expression id sawing heads off Americans for TV and killing everything around them...what of their rights as..........Americans.......They have a .......right .......to due process and representation by an ACLU attorney.......after all everone who is shooting at us is an American Citizen ......right.......and U.S,Law covers the world like Sherwin William Paint.......right.People who have never left their little shithole third world country are well within their rights to expect protection from our laws correct? Warfare is also a Civil matter and enemy soldiers have the right to sue if they are injured as a result of our action or inaction to protect them in combat right? Why shouldn't enemy soldiers not collect Workmans Compensation for injuries received while at war with us? Of course it is "Illegal" for our soldiers to be "mean" and to speak "crossly" to these scholerly moslem gentelmen who are killing us.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,690 Posts
"The task force's activities became known on Tuesday with the release of a June document stating its members punched and abused Iraqi prisoners in front of Defense Intelligence Agency agents and threatened the agents to try to silence them."

Yes, this is an absolute outrage. Special Forces personnel definitely should not be required to obey standing orders regarding treatment of prisoners, and should be free to threaten intelligence agents to ensure their silence.
 

·
Gunco Irregular
Joined
·
4,323 Posts
Good points DD, and I know I keep saying this, but your pic sure puts it in the right perspective
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,690 Posts
OK, question here: You're the Commanding Officer of these guys. They ignore your orders on how to treat prisoners and threaten intelligence officers who may otherwise let you know what's going on. In the meantime, the insurgents are scoring propaganda victories elsewhere in the theatre of operations with reports of American maltreatment of prisoners.

What do you do?
 

·
Class 07 FFL/SOT
Joined
·
6,297 Posts
War is hell.

If I were their commanding officer I would issue them with a "Harsh Verbal Reprimand" while handing "My Boys" a cold Carona.I would tell them don't do anything "Questionable" when the REMFs and Pogues were about and to kill all reporters and make it look like a fucking accident.
 

Attachments

·
DADDY WARBUCKS
Joined
·
19,433 Posts
Do not most orders have some discretionary wiggle room in order to deal with circumstances that can not always be anticipated?
 

·
Code name: Felix
Joined
·
6,361 Posts
dinkydow said:
If I were their commanding officer I would issue them with a "Harsh Verbal Reprimand" while handing "My Boys" a cold Corona.
That's how you handle it. Everybody is under stress in that place, you've got to give them some leeway while defusing the situation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,690 Posts
aviator said:
...you've got to give them some leeway while defusing the situation.
In full agreement with that.

Agree with your premise. Disagree with your conclusion that one then endorses ignoring orders with a wink-and-a-nod and hands the fellow a brew.
 

·
DADDY WARBUCKS
Joined
·
19,433 Posts
Interesting that you would be one of the first to say that "just following orders" is a cop out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,690 Posts
Custer said:
Interesting that you would be one of the first to say that "just following orders" is a cop out.
Custer, gimme a break. Acknowledging that folks need to be cut a bit of slack if they screw up some in a high-stress situation is considerably different from contending that following orders gives you moral impunity. As though I'm telling you something you didn't already know: C'mon, you can do better than that.

Although the most interesting inconsistency in what you say, Custer, is that what I'm talking about is that these guys did NOT follow orders. The standing orders were to treat prisoners humanely, not to abuse them.
 

·
DADDY WARBUCKS
Joined
·
19,433 Posts
Let's see. They should have the discretion to ignore orders they disagree with yet they must follow orders.

Guess it depends on whose ox is being gored.
 
1 - 20 of 75 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top