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What's wrong with socialism ??

4676 Views 83 Replies 37 Participants Last post by  bellson
Seriously . Why do so many people in the United States become upset over the mentioning of socialism ?

What is "Wrong" with socialist policies? Have you ever been to europe? Do you realise how many socialist policies are already in place in our own country?

Countries like Denmark, Sweden have excellent standards of living and implement many things that you would call socialist. While it's not the be all end all solution, the world doesn't fall apart.

It's dishonest to say that socialism can't work, at all, or somehow diminishes the concept of the individual.

What kind of a life do the McCarthyists on this forum think western europeans have exactly?

It would help, for there to be some kind of connect across the political spectrum, to at least accept the existence of other countries/cultures more socialist than the US and that they aren't bad places to live. You don't have any less individual freedoms living in Europe than you do the US, on average, at least not due to any "socialist" policies. If anything socialist policies very often care about the individual - for example that's a big part of welfare, especially when it comes to disabilities. Capitalists just care about the overall system, and the "freedom to fail" - not what happens to the individuals that fall through. If they die, so what. Heck, if unemployment insurance had been in place in 1929, that depression wouldn't have had nearly the impact that it did.

But the THEORIES behind it all conflict with their sense of rights, freedoms and history.

And that gets their backs up, their flags up, and their guns out. At it's heart, people's attitude is selfish and counter productive to living in a wider society. To live in a wider society, this is something we have to do, and overall people have more freedoms because of it. But, it's not as if folks care about other people's freedoms. So let's have an anarcho capitalist system where even MORE people die! Because people die anyway???
But godforbid, we have a mechanism in place that would allow our senior citizens to retire and enjoy their golden years without having to work full time just to pay for their medication?? We've been taught to be against socialism but never taught exactly what socialism is.

It's much easier to teach a generation of people to fear something than to actually teach them about something.
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Socialism does directly impinge on individual freedom, and you're correct, we have many (too many) socialist policies in place. If you like them fine... I don't. I would prefer to live in liberty, something we have been slowly losing for quite some time.

You must be too young not to know better.

Mark
If european countrys are so great ... why are you still here ?
The biggest problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Socialism...

The entire premise of socialism is to use the collective to protect the weakest elements of society by using the tax money of the stronger elements of society.

Please explain to me why I should bust my ass working my entire life to ensure I will have a comfortable retirement and under socialism's wonderful mandates my neighbor who is a fat, lazy, slob who has been on welfare his entire life gets a comfortable retirement, and healthcare, and all that the collective decides he deserves? Sorry no.

Frankly, what Europe does doesn't interest me in the least. Funny thing about Europe, they are supposedly so much more advanced than the US...Why is it then everytime they find their ass in a jam they look to the US to save them? Why qare we supporting entire European communities with our military bases? Why can't we bring all of those troops home and let those advanced Europeans defend themselves? You know why as well as I do. The economic ripple of the capitalist Americans leaving would decimate large protions of those countries.

Sadly this country is sinking more and more into socialism every year. The people are such sheep they don't see it and march bleeting to their own ruin.
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How would you like it to be illegal to take a second job if you wanted more money? How about paying 40% or more income tax, 18% VAT, 8 buck a gallon for gas, and 8 bucks for a beer at a cheep bar. How about a military who can't afford to have exercises because it is too expensive (Sweden)? How about having a tooth pulled instead of getting a root canal because it cuts costs? How about having to pay taxes on your TVs and radios? How about not being able to have certain guns and no guns in the same caliber? How about a huge underground economy based on barter? How about having 18-25% unemployment in the 18-25 year old bracket during good times? How about having to buy a house a then wait for the occupant to die before you can move in? How would you like to not have the ability to arm yourself in the face of criminal aggression? The government is involved in every aspect of your life. Tax evasion is a national passtime because it is the only way most can afford to buy things beyond the basics. You don't have much less rights when dealing with the justice system their.

My friends in Sweden want to immigrate here. They can't believe our standard of living compared to theirs and they are white collar profesionals in Sweden who are considered better off by other working folks. Europe is an expensive place to live with high unsustainable taxes, which the governments think they can fix by letting folks immigrate from North Africa legally and illegally.

I like being responsible for my actions and having the freedom to fail or succeed depending on how much effort I put in to it. Some things in life are luck of the draw, but studies have shown that most rich folks in the US lose their wealth by generation four. I grew up poor and with a lot of hard work and sacrifice I made it solidly into the upper middle class. I hope my son makes it farther, but if he fails, it will be through no fault but his own as that is the spirit of the American way.

If you think that Europe is so great, then go suck on that tit so there will be room for some of the folks over their who would like freedom and oportunity for their kids to move here.

-yarro
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Socialism...

The entire premise of socialism is to use the collective to protect the weakest elements of society by using the tax money of the stronger elements of society.

Please explain to me why I should bust my ass working my entire life to ensure I will have a comfortable retirement and under socialism's wonderful mandates my neighbor who is a fat, lazy, slob who has been on welfare his entire life gets a comfortable retirement, and healthcare, and all that the collective decides he deserves? Sorry no.

Frankly, what Europe does doesn't interest me in the least. Funny thing about Europe, they are supposedly so much more advanced than the US...Why is it then everytime they find their ass in a jam they look to the US to save them? Why qare we supporting entire European communities with our military bases? Why can't we bring all of those troops home and let those advanced Europeans defend themselves? You know why as well as I do. The economic ripple of the capitalist Americans leaving would decimate large protions of those countries.

Sadly this country is sinking more and more into socialism every year. The people are such sheep they don't see it and march bleeting to their own ruin.
You can be a productive member of society and still need food stamps. An unskilled single mother raising three kids working 50 hours a week may qualify for food stamps, and even welfare. Yet they are on the public dole. Should the rug be pulled out from under her? Social programs are needed SPECIFICALLY for these types of situations. The lazy, do nothing slacker is the exception, not the rule. Human nature tells you that. How many people "on the public dole are physically, mentally unable to perform some type of work" is both a strawman and significantly less than you would think, as being a productive member of society is part of human nature, not slacking off.

Why are "conservatives" more motivated to shaft the have nots than providing a safety net for yourself should you ever need it? The "socialist" solution isn't perfect, but a capitalism one doesn't exist, at least not on any practical level. It's an imperfection. It's better than not having the system. I think it's much worse if you're 100% "forced" to work all the time. That's just wage slavery. It's nice that there is a net for people who don't mesh well with the working world in general, it's sad, but sometimes it's cheaper to keep them at home on the dole.
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And that gets their backs up, their flags up, and their guns out.

Show me all the guns that are out. This statement alone discredits everything else in the post and succinctly shows the real nature of the dead simian. The FBI estimates that there are 200 million privately-owned firearms in the U.S.

A few nutjobs on the left, right and middle get caught now and again pulling stupid and illegal acts involving guns yet the left koolaid kids seize on that tiny number to broadly brush all conservatives as violent and aggressive. Not all centrists, and certainly not ANY liberals. The premise is not true and the target is false, yet it is a pivotal point in their argumentative debate.
I see the point you are making.
It's all in the making positive use of the system at hand.
Sweden, Denmark and other European states are ahead of us
in realizing that promoting health is less taxing on a socialized
economy. Whereas, the US capitalist system promotes and uses
the poor health standards for an economic profit engine.

The underlying liberties of any state are determined by the
priorities managed to provide this service. Capitalism or Socialism, or
a Monarchy for that matter, at some point become vested holdings by an
obliarchy of wealth. It matters little what system runs the society, what is
important is the strategic position of any particular state.

I prefer raw capitalism in a free market environment. Where property owners actually own property and have a vested stake in their dirt.

The depraved have nothing else to face than socialist policy.
Marx realized this end game because it was inevitable that it would
emerge via a predictable avenue of ruin. Those who will not lead will
forfeit their liberties for a lie, or a reasonable compromise.

A true republic is maintained by fundamental values in real time.
It is a demanding proposition which excludes the faint of heart.
Like earlier attempts at a polyarchy in history, the sweet fragrance
pulls one into a quiescent mind. Noble, but ill advised. :)
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I think this is an april fool's joke guys. At least I hope.
In capitalism you have the ability, repeatedly to make as much of yourself as you want. You have the ability to have a life as good as you want, you work for it.

In socialism, the have the honor of being a cog. Work harder, doesnt matter, you just loose more money to taxes. The economy flat lines, as does your quality of life.

Yay. You want to be a socialist, wonderful, Im SURE china will happily take you in. So get out. This country is based on individual liberty, and freedom. Go where you are a number if you want to be a number. Better yet, take your friends with you, the majority of this country does not want you here.



I would agree too, original post is april fools. But Im serious.
Spent 6 years in Germany and even got go into east germany while the wall was still up. First mother in law offered to pay for me to go to school if I would stay in Germany-No thanks I came back to The USA.
Everything is wrong with Socialism.

When it fails here, just like everywhere else it's been tried, you'll know.


Rage
You can be a productive member of society and still need food stamps. An unskilled single mother raising three kids working 50 hours a week may qualify for food stamps, and even welfare. Yet they are on the public dole. Should the rug be pulled out from under her? Social programs are needed SPECIFICALLY for these types of situations. Of course social programs are for that situation. Unfortunately far too many people believe it is their right to sit on that public dole for their entire life. That is not what it was intended for in most cases. Of course there are those who legitimately can't work. The physically disabkled for example. The problem is we have created a system where once some people learn to play it like a concert pianist they NEVER GET OFF FROM IT and in fact it because multi-generaltional. For those who find themselves in a tough situation it was intended to be a stop gap measure to help them get back on their feet and then OFF FROM WELFARE, FOOD STAMPS, AFDC and the rest. It was NEVER meant to be a way of life.The lazy, do nothing slacker is the exception, not the rule. Human nature tells you that. How many people "on the public dole are physically, mentally unable to perform some type of work" is both a strawman and significantly less than you would think, as being a productive member of society is part of human nature, not slacking off. Your premise is partially correct. PEOPLE WITH NORMAL VALUES AND MORALS, THAT ARE WELL ADJUSTED, PROPERLY EDUCATED AND WITH PARENTS THAT DEVELOPED A WORK ETHIC IN THEM WANT TO BE PRODUCTIVE. Others will always seek the path of least resistance and as long as we have government programs telling them that they are the victim and unable to take care of themselves people will line up to suck off the public tit that I and others that actually work pay taxes to support.

Why are "conservatives" more motivated to shaft the have nots than providing a safety net for yourself should you ever need it? I am not interested in shafting anyone, including myself. It is not my job to support those who simply choose an easy way out and figure out the system well enough to not have to work. I have no problem giving a leg up to those in temporary distress or those genuinely unable to work like the handicapped. The "socialist" solution isn't perfect, but a capitalism one doesn't exist, at least not on any practical level. It's an imperfection. It's better than not having the system. I think it's much worse if you're 100% "forced" to work all the time. That's just wage slavery. Wage slavery? Seriously you are either stupid or too young to have any clue what the hell you are talking about. Life is about working for what you want and not settling for a lower level of living that the collective supplies. You call it wage slavery, I call it work ethic. If I want something I earn my money, save my money, and when I have enough I buy what I want. I don't expect you, or my neighbors, or tax money, or handouts, to pay for my lifestyle. It's nice that there is a net for people who don't mesh well with the working world in general, it's sad, but sometimes it's cheaper to keep them at home on the dole. Those that don't mesh with the working world? Seriously, the only people that should be in that category are those too disabled to work. I am NOT willing to pay hard earned tax money to someone who simply doesn't mesh with the working world. Give them community service jobs, if they don't want regular work. Have them clean the side of roads, clean public restrooms, rake leaves, shovel snow, or similar jobs. If they don't show NO HANDOUT.
Seriously if this isn't an April Fool's joke this jag off is one of the brain washed sheeple that will lead this country to either ruin or revolution.

The free market works when it is actually a free market. Maybe someday the government will get their damn meathooks out of the market place and all this will self correct. I am hoping but not holding my breath waiting for that to occur.
WARNING!!!
This person has been infecting other sites with his Socialist BS.
HE/SHE/IT IS A TROLL!!!
If you don't throw food him/her/it will go away.
Mike
Theoretically, communism works. so does socialism. But then you have to weed out and destroy all of the population that cannot produce. For communism or socialism to work, there cannot be any lazy assed slackers that want to sponge off the rest. They have to be eliminated. The russians showed this 40 years ago when the had aptitude tests for everyone. Either you scored high enough to get to go to school so you could become some trained individual with a little better one room apartment, or you at the age of 10 were shipped off to do manual labor till you died at 17. There was no sitting around waiting for a welfare check.

Of course, weeding out(executing) the nonproducers would strenthen the gene pool until the socialistic and communistic ideas would work.
Socialism and communism also work, at the voluntary and local level. The earliest Christians were communists - everything and everybody were there to care for and help anyone with a need. People guided by a belief in Christ as Savior were able to truly give from the heart and ensure that all received what was needed.

It's the institutionalized and nationalized forms of "socialism" and "communism" that prompt the ultimate greed, corruption and power-grabbing that the inevitable cadre' of power-hungry men and women of each generation so covet.

Given freely to one's neighbors, social and communal sharing is a wonderful gift. Taken by force of law and force itself, mandatory social and communal "sharing" are the antithesis of their noble ideals.
What's wrong with socialism?

1) Government are historically inefficient at allocating resources. Command economies don't work, one of the leading factors for the fall of the USSR. The free market decides where resources shall be allocated.

2) Socialism through redistribution attempts to stamp out greed, which always fails since basic human nature is greed. Most people like to have nice/newest things, hence why free markets work.

3) Health care under this system will also fail, going back to reason 1...

My parents escaped socialism to come to America in the 80's when Reagan was in office, but it seems this country is falling to socialism. Hopefully, in November we can start to right the wrongs from November 2008.
Socialism and communism also work, at the voluntary and local level. The earliest Christians were communists - everything and everybody were there to care for and help anyone with a need. People guided by a belief in Christ as Savior were able to truly give from the heart and ensure that all received what was needed.

It's the institutionalized and nationalized forms of "socialism" and "communism" that prompt the ultimate greed, corruption and power-grabbing that the inevitable cadre' of power-hungry men and women of each generation so covet.

Given freely to one's neighbors, social and communal sharing is a wonderful gift. Taken by force of law and force itself, mandatory social and communal "sharing" are the antithesis of their noble ideals.
You are so right. That's why the hippie communes worked for a while, until the greed took over. Hippies? Does this date me?
And, that's why religious communities (communism, commune, and community all share the same root) often work so well in providing social needs.

It's what Ronald Reagan advocated, and what took the country by storm once the shock of non-governmental social activism actually became rooted once again in the consciousness of the American public. We need to return to the goal of limited Federal government and unlimited local concern!
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